Sacking Foley no solution

[Tazzmania]

I think Nick Taylor is one of the better rugby journalists and his sentiments are spot on.

Sacking Foley no solution

Having spoken to a few of the players I can tell you their is a lot of respect for Foley and they way he runs the program.

We are not on a level playing as we have said many times in other threads and points can be debated. However in adversity they have to support each other , button down the hatches and try come out of this mess stronger than before with us squarely behind them.

[jono]

ive said a few times I think sacking a coach mid season is stupid.
I'm also not 100% convinced that getting rid of foley is the right answer. He's done lots of work behind the scenes & Reinvented the team culture which is an absolute mammoth task.

But the coaching set up needs something else - an attack coach & a backs coach so that the forwards coaches don't have to have a split focus - maybe then out defence & set piece might be as potent as it has been.

Overall I think for the organisation & the culture foley has been good - but in professional sport that doesn't mean anything if there isn't any on field results. Something has to change - but I don't know what to suggest.

[Sheikh]

Looking at the other Australian franchises, the top level coaches they have are:

Brumbies: Head coach, Forwards, Defence, Specialist Scrum
Tahs: Head, Forwards, Defence, Specialist Attack & Kicking
Rebels: Head, Forwards, Backs, Attack
Reds: Started the season with Head ("Skills"), Attack, Forwards
Force: Head (Forwards), Defence, Backs

So the Tahs, Brumbies and Rebels have 4 coaches (head & 3 specialists) while the Force and Reds started the season with 3 coaches, with the head coach presumably also taking the role of one of the specialists coaches. How are the Reds & Force doing this season?

[Jeansyjive]

What about Foleys time at the Tahs when he had a team full of Wallabies and they were terrible.

He has zero success as a coach and appalling win loss record. Just maybe he isn't a good enough coach. The good teams look well drilled, instinctive and have a plan for all situations. We look like there is no game plan and very predictable. What happened to earning the right to go wide?

Let's remember he also over saw the Perth Spirit who had a terrible season. He is is just not up too it.

[GIGS20]

Yes, I agree that a mid-season sacking is only going to do more harm than good. We won't replace him with anybody of value and the assistant coaches are surely as responsible for this mess as he is.

I do think that his performance needs to be investigated harshly and the remaining term of his contract should be at risk, we simply cannot continue into 2017 with him not being, at the very least, put under the blowtorch.

There are also several players and management officials who need to have similar ultimata.

The lack of Wallaby jerseys present in the team is no coincidence, we only seem to have local boys turn into Wallabies after they leave, is that the vaunted east-coast bias or is it the culture of a team that capitulates whenever the heat is applied?

How do we get Marquee players such as Peter Grant, a couple of tests for the Springboks about a million years ago, Steve Mafi (admittedly current for Tonga, but hardly setting Super Rugby alight) and Alby Mattewson another Ageing one-test Allblack when the Brumbies can get a Tomas Cubelli (current int he number 4 team in World Rugby?

In short, there is an overwhelming mountain of issues in this team, but let's be realistic, the coach certainly has some responsibility in the mess and his role in this TWO YEAR DISASTER, must be addressed.

[shasta]

How do we get Marquee players such as Peter Grant, a couple of tests for the Springboks about a million years ago, Steve Mafi (admittedly current for Tonga, but hardly setting Super Rugby alight) and Alby Mattewson another Ageing one-test Allblack when the Brumbies can get a Tomas Cubelli (current int he number 4 team in World Rugby?

Do you really need an answer? Had the ARU tipped in the same odd 5-10 mill (whatever it has been at Melbourne) we might have got players like Cubelli and the many other imports like the Rabble have been afforded. Might just have had as much improvement too. May even have done so without bleeding money like a haemophiliac in a gang fight. But I know you knew that.

[jargan83]

Todd Blackadder is available next year...

[travelling_gerry]

So is Tom Fearn.

[AndyS]

I don't know whether sacking the coach would have any real effect, as I'd be sceptical about how much say we'd have over the outcome. But certainly Foley is not showing any signs of understanding or addressing the issues. He is defending his relationship with the players and suggests that they just have to persist with the new plan, but the issue for mine is that there seems to be little evidence of any new plan. They still kick away key ball and defend sternly, but there is little evidence of any actual plan in the backs.

Even if they weren't kicking it, there is more ti "running rugby" than just holding on to the ball...that is all the kids at half time do, and somewhat more successfully. A running gameplan is not passing side to side looking for a gap until someone makes a break and gets isolated or kicks. It hinges on pass speed, accuracy, hitting players already moving, support lines, leg drive in contact, freeing arms in the tackle and aggressive intelligent clean-out. Most of all it requires willpower and a positive mindset, which comes from having a real plan and confidence it can be executed it as a team. It is not a big secret strategy, it is all the small skills executed well and confidence in the players around you.

It is not on the coach; mostly it is on the players. They are the ones responsible for their skills and fitness...they are not children any more. Seriously, does anyone think a state or test cricket player is being taught how to do his job by some bloke on the sideline? The players need to man up, own the plan and do what they need to while getting help where necessary. At the same time, it is not always easy to have a common vision of what that goal looks like and that is where the coach is responsible. He could do it from scratch, but that is not really necessary for a goal so basic. The should do it by example, learning from the best proponents of what they want to achieve. The Chiefs might be an obvious example, sotake their games, work out what bits you want to appropriate, break down what it is they are doing and then work on that with the guys involved. It might be the structure of the support lines, or how their forwards pod up, but break it down, explain it and learn it.

And if necessary, overcommit to it this year. The year is long buggered anyway, so stop obsessing about defence and focus on what they are more crap at. It is a steep learning curve, so reduce the burden of what they already know. It doesn't matter if we give away tries now if by the end of the season we've learnt how to score some. To be honest, the constant defensive mindset is probably only getting in the way at the moment anyway.

[GIGS20]

Do you really need an answer?

not really, that was pretty rhetorical, and it's an indicator that Foley isn't the entirety of the problem (which was what I was driving at) you can tell the organisation is being run on the change in Sinderberrys back pocket and that's the real point.

As I have said repeatedly, we're probably stuck with it until more money shows up, I can't see the force paying out foley, I can't see them buying better quality players, I can't see them investing in an attack coach, I can't see anything changing until they have the finance to affect change.

The only way I see that occurring is via this ARU management agreement thingo, but if it doesnt carry a rebels-esque injection of capital, well flounder in the same condition until we die a slow death and are forced to move to western Sydney, funded by the SMH.

Let's face it, rust can only keep the supporters on for so long, and lots of us are starting to feel in need of a wire brush.

[chibi]

The franchise is in a malaise for a decade.

[Moono74]

Foley and the Force are 4 wins 20 losses since start of 2015. That's 16%. Now if that was my bank account interest rate I'd be a happy man.....but its not....it sucks and nothing looks like changing because the whole organisation doesn't perceive that there is any problem and they show no urgency to do anything about resolving it.

So the status quo will continue. It's easier to do nothing than to make the tough calls.

But like the dickhead I am, I'll be there Friday for the game against the Bulls. Hopefully the laughs of the Bulls fans won't sting too much.

[Ralto]

The only way I see that occurring is via this ARU management agreement thingo.

Agreed, there is more to this than Foley. It's the administration, organisation - the whole box and dice - May be not enough oversight occurring here. Pulver has a substantial job, if he wants to do a "Gordon Ramsay" here. All power to him.

[Ralto]

in need of a wire brush.

...and dettol.

[andrewg]

There’s been many good posts talking about perspective/Sacking Michael Foley.

A few points right up front:

1. Ultimately the buck stops with the Head Coach.
2. The Head Coach has the responsibility of preparing the players as best he can for each opposition with the aim of winning each game.
3. IT IS THE PLAYERS’ RESPONSIBILITY TO EMBRACE AND IMPLIMENT THE GAME PLAN. The players are all professionals, some of them are paid very well for doing something they enjoy and are good at. All stakeholders are entitled to expect them to do more than just show up. It’s reasonable to expect a full 80 minute effort on most occasions, above average effort frequently and the occasional bad game as they are still human.
4. The WF squad is still up to 6 players short of a very competitive team for all sorts of reasons including $$s. This was true despite the pre-season hype. We are unlikely to dominate any team in Super Rugby.
5. Our 1st choice starting XV is capable of beating any team on their day. We do not have the depth on the bench. Injuries to our starting XV hurt our prospects.

There has been a lot of negative talk about Michael Foley’s efforts in preparing the team and changes to the game plan.
In reality, the changed game plan has had the Force very competitive for extended periods in most of the 8 games played so far.

In no way am I trying to make excuses. Just trying to give a fair assessment.

ROUND 1 – REBELS – HOME
• 59 minutes – score was F19:20R
• Force still in the game.
• Most bench replacements made 45-56 minutes.
• Rebels score winning try at 62 minutes.
• Final score F19:25R

ROUND 2 – REDS – AWAY
• THE WIN.
• Built on a F9:3R half time score to F22:6R final score.
• Reds were a rabble.

ROUND 3 – BRUMBIES – HOME
• 1 Yellow Card (Cowan)
• 1 Yellow Card to Brumbies (Cubelli).
• Down F7:17B at half time.
• 2ND Yellow Card in 2nd half (Masirewa)
• Brumbies outscored us by 2 Tries during the Sin Bins.
• Replacements made 55-75 minutes.
• At 66 mins still in touch at F14:24B.
• Final score F14:31B.

ROUND 4 – HURRICANES – AWAY
• Half time score – H10:3F. Not bad against 2015 finalist.
• 56 minutes – still in game H15:6F.
• Replacement made 58 mins (Alby)
• Canes score try at 63 mins.
• 3 more replacements made 64 mins.
• Canes score try at 67 mins.
• 3 more replacements made at 67 mins.
• Canes score 2 more tries to win H41:6F.

ROUND 5 – CHIEFS – AWAY
• Half time C12:10F. Very good!!
• 46 mins - C19:10F. Still in touch.
• 55 mins. Yellow Card (Cottrell)
• Chiefs score 3 tries during Sin Bin. C36:10F.
• Replacements made 66-68 minutes.
• Chiefs score 3 tries 72-80 mins.
• Final score C53:10F.

ROUND 6 – HIGHLANDERS – AWAY
• 10 mins. – Force ahead 14 to nil. Fantastic.
• 27 mins. Scores even with tries each.
• Half Time. H14:14F. Not bad against last year’s champs.
• 3 replacements at 59-60 mins.
• 67 mins. After trading penalty goals score H25:20F. Still in touch.
• 2 more replacements 68 mins.
• Clan scores try at 76 mins.
• Final score – H32:20F

ROUND 7 – CRUSADERS – HOME
• Half Time – F6:13C.
• 62 minutes – F19:13C.
• 77 mins. Crusaders get winning try – F19:20C. BUGGER.

ROUND 9 – WARATAHS – HOME
• 10 mins Yellow Card (Masirewa)
• 12 mins Try to Tahs – F3:8W.
• Half Time – F6:17W.
• 46-52 mins. Waratahs replacements – 2 x Wallabies (Mumm & Palu)
• 54 mins. Scoble TRY. Score – F13:20W.
• 56-60 mins – 2 quick tries to Tahs (Folau & Robinson)
• 62-69 mins 5 replacements for Force; 1 Wallaby for Tahs (TPN).
• 70 & 79 mins – 2 more tries by Tahs
• Final score – F13:49W.
• Generally playing a team with 8-10 current Wallabies on field. We've beaten them before and not with just boring rugby. Shame we struck them on the improve.

Summary:
1. Foley has actually prepared the squad and game plans such that the Force is generally still in touch at 50-60 minutes.
2. We simply don’t have the talent in our squad. We are still short of 4-6 players to be a real FORCE in SR.
3. The Force is still not getting good reward from the times when we have good position and territory.
4. The Force does not appear to have any “finishers” to get scores at critical times.
5. Too often the Force blows chances with poor set pieces or handling errors at critical/close to line positions. Can’t imagine that the coach tells them to do this!!
6. The score blow-outs have generally come after bench replacements.
7. Blowouts are always possible when we play teams full of Wallabies/All Blacks/Bokkes.
8. With the injuries to key personnel (2 x Props early then Jono Lance, Godwin, Burton et al) we just don’t have the depth to lift off the bench (as we have done in the past). Hence the regular fade out in last 20 minutes.
9. We can be competitive when the 1st XV is available AND WHEN PLAYERS ARE PLAYING TO THE GAME PLAN. IMPLIMENTATION OF THE PLAN IS THE RESPONSIBILTY OF THE PLAYERS. Obviously too many players simply go missing with key aspects such as line speed, always running support of the ball carriers, disciple (not just the Yellow Cards), tackle success, handling errors and pushing too hard. These appear to be problems with our Backs just not stepping up and putting into action what they practice.
10. This is NEITHER AN EVEN NOR FAIR FIXTURE. No other Aussie team has had a schedule like the Force playing 5 of the top 8 teams (combined table) in the opening rounds; nor the 4 top NZ teams in consecutive weeks. Only the Brumbies (Canes) and Reds (Clan) have beaten teams in the top 8 (combined table).
11. A number of players have developed very well under Michael Foley - and they're not all Forwards. Best DHP.
12. Local talent have been developed more under Foley than any previous coach; Ainsley, RHP, Hardwick, Koteka and now Scoble. Kyle Godwin has still to show his best after some tough injuries - but he's back to enjoying his rugby and even kicking the ball OK.