Oh Yes, We're The Great Pretenders, Ooo, Ooo, Ooo

[The Oracle]

Nedlands Vice President and also one of their Life Members told me. You're right, they probably aren't reliable.

To clarify, it was senior players they were talking about, not juniors.

[The InnFORCEr]

By the way Fulvia - do not ask the question why Wanneroo failed to play 3 and 4 last week - ask where they have gone and why - I have no doubt that they will be back but it does beggar the question?

The Scot

This sounds very interesting, I'll bet ya $50 I know the answer

[RugbyFan]

Nedlands Vice President and also one of their Life Members told me. You're right, they probably aren't reliable.

To clarify, it was senior players they were talking about, not juniors.

Sorry, but you are misinformed.

[The Scot]

Which of the facts are incorrect -

Fulvio - My apologies for the spelling error -

oracle - as for being in the pub - memory reminds me that your time is often spent there

Point 1 - There was no suggestion of postcodes - the comment was with regard to players from junior ranks coached by that club -

Point 2- Catchment area
In human geography, a catchment area is the area and population from which a city or individual service (sports group) attracts visitors or customers (read players) . For example, a school catchment area is the geographic area from which students are eligible to attend a local school.

Which will be the largest catchment area - a simple question

3. Facts - and the same question how many players did the top 5 clubs field last weekend that came through there junior ranks

There are no false statements nor incorrect facts unless you have a set of figures that prove the statement to be incorrect

The one error in the post is that it was University that obtained a second under 18 team and not cottesloe - however it was also from one under 16 team in the year before - where did they come from ?

The attitude in your post without showing facts tells me that it hit close to home

[Reds81]

Which of the facts are incorrect -

The one error in the post is that it was University that obtained a second under 18 team and not cottesloe - however it was also from one under 16 team in the year before - where did they come from ?

The attitude in your post without showing facts tells me that it hit close to home

As you would know Scot,y ou have fogotten to include schools! i your mix. There are many who play in PSA schools not necessarily affiliated to a club i..e. they begin the game in Year 8. Remember also that many 1sts/2nds PSA kids do not play club in Years 11 &12. Many clubs in the Western suburbs are impacted upon by PSA and have a fall in numbers at thiis age group - u16s. It is alos not correct to assume that an u16 team one year automaicially becomes an u18. Uni had many players sign up for their program this year. There is nothing sinister in that. As Nedlands, Soaks etc were not able to field a team, more went to Uni; the 2nd Uni team was entered last week.

Scot- I would love to see a strong Joondalup playing premier grade with teams in all divisions. Question is could Perth sustain it.

Finally Perth rugby does actually need players from outside its 'junior' ranks. That would be the case all over the world. The model of u 6 till the grave in all reality is oversimplistic.

Good Luck this year.

[The Oracle]

At last some logic being sprinkled over Jock's garbled attempt to justify Joondalup's push for a Premier Grade berth. Well done Reds, you have more patience than me.

Clearly there are reasons why the western suburbs clubs survive and prosper. Demographics, population density, concentration of PSA schools, quality of club management, availability of sponsors, proximity of Rugby WA / EWF players etc etc

Having seen Joondalup play in the finals at Mcillivray last year the standard was laughable; social rugby at best. Chalk and cheese when compared to the Neddies 3rd grade side that won the real 3rd grade premiership.

Jock, when I read your post last evening I had just returned from a pleasant restaurant meal in Claremont and I immediately had a vision of you chomping through some cold pizza and sculling half a bottle of Johnnie Walker Red Label in front of a dilapidated home computer. How far away from the truth was I?

With your memory, you may struggle to remember back that far!

[zed]

At last some logic being sprinkled over Jock's garbled attempt to justify Joondalup's push for a Premier Grade berth. Well done Reds, you have more patience than me.

Clearly there are reasons why the western suburbs clubs survive and prosper. Demographics, population density, concentration of PSA schools, quality of club management, availability of sponsors, proximity of Rugby WA / EWF players etc etc

Having seen Joondalup play in the finals at Mcillivray last year the standard was laughable; social rugby at best. Chalk and cheese when compared to the Neddies 3rd grade side that won the real 3rd grade premiership.

Jock, when I read your post last evening I had just returned from a pleasant restaurant meal in Claremont and I immediately had a vision of you chomping through some cold pizza and sculling half a bottle of Johnnie Walker Red Label in front of a dilapidated home computer. How far away from the truth was I?

With your memory, you may struggle to remember back that far!

I have to agree. I'd like to see Joondalup in the Premiership. But as far as I can see they don't have the players nor the facilities. Don't they only have one pitch? Having strong juniors is great, but the majority of the top players in the Premiership hail from NZ. Like it or not, the caliber of player from NZ is much higher than locally bred players (there are some exceptions). So Joondalup are not going to be able to rely on their Juniors for their top sides. And as it stands they don't have an U20s and their U18s are bottom of the ladder (still early days) And as Oracle put it, the standard of the league Joondalup are playing in is poor and much lower than the other third grade league. I don't mean to sound negative, but supporters of Joondalup need to put forward logical, sensible reasons why they should be promoted to the Premiership. By saying they won their league last year, against such mighty teams like Midland & Bunbury, is a bit silly as a reason why they should be promoted. They will need to bring in/import/pay/steal at least 60 senior players in order for them to be competitive. As far as I can see, realistically, they are still at least 5 years from being ready for promotion.

[Darren]

As far as I can see, realistically, they are still at least 5 years from being ready for promotion.

If this is the case, given the speed things move here, realistically they should probably start laying the ground work, getting people thinking and getting things rolling now. Perhaps Jock is smarter than you give him credit for...

[Hansie]

If Joondalup are keen to move into Premiership category, do exactly as Coach and Zed are advising. I am sure if they were pro-active and wanted to look at how far off the mark their playing stocks are I duggest the following:

1. Watch a few first grade games.
2. Ask to visit a few Premier Grade clubs on training nights to see training intensity.
3. Learn from those clubs already there.

Having numbers and winning a few lower grade premierships is one thing, having level 3 coaches, playing stocks, equipment and backing to put a Premier grade team together is another. Nedlands Premier Grade would beat Nedlands third grade by a handsome margin.

Premier Grade clubs would enjoy seeing Joondalup push for inclusion, but having a hugely strong junior programme and success in 3rd grade is but one small part of the equation.

[zed]

The smart thing to do, is for WARU to allow Joondalup to gradually get promoted to the Premiership. i.e They win 3rd grade black, they get promoted to 3rd grade gold, win that 2nd grade etc etc They'll be able to slowly build up a strong player base rather than a sudden jump from 4th grade to the premiership. Obviously this would require WARU to use some kind of logic, rationale and organisation. Attributes that they very obviously, and unfortunately, lack. Maybe they are just oblivious as to the poor state of rugby in WA or they just don't care. Who knows.

[Thequeerone]

Also it must be generic - it's not good enough to say if Joondalup does this or that then they can be premier it has to be a recognised pathway that could apply to others - this sort of thing happens every 10 years - this business of everything looking or feeling like some sort of closed shop purple circle has to end for RugbyWa and our entire rugby community to have any credence. A transparent smooth process which allows rugby to grow with the state's population not in spite of it.

[The Scot]

Jock, when I read your post last evening I had just returned from a pleasant restaurant meal in Claremont and I immediately had a vision of you chomping through some cold pizza and sculling half a bottle of Johnnie Walker Red Label in front of a dilapidated home computer. How far away from the truth was I?

Oracle Being a Scot would normally indicate that we do take a dram - however not in my home and not for the last 40 years - PS 2 brand new Imacs - are you still using windows 6

One of the problems with the posts is - That the requirements of the WARU are far higher for a club to enter the top end than for those that need to stay there

1. Level 3 coach in charge - with local and foreign experience at Premiership level
2. New Clubrooms or clubrooms that fit the bill (facilities etc)
3. A specific level of sponsorship to match that of the senior clubs
4. Youth and junior development and future potential development
5. Involvement with the local community - schools etc
6. Win both grades - that they participate in
7. Have either under 18 or 20 with the facility to have both in 2 - 3 years
8. Facility for 2 grounds in the next 2 - 3 years
9. Cash flow
10 Recruitment and youth development potential ( how do they get this without being in or close to premier level - a promise of access is not a fact)

As for the progression - there is none - When one of the junior clubs applied for Second Grade this year - the answer was not a chance - so progression is not going to happen at this stage ? if not now - WHEN?

With the Current Wanneroo coach undergoing his level 3 at the moment along with a member of the Force and only 2 a year being allocated (on average) - we have to ask when will every premier club have a level 3 at its helm -

Yes we are putting it out there - and as thequeerone says let it be transparent and stick with it

Hansie
Thanks for the comments - however premier in Perth is London 2 or so in the UK - and having been in both levels over the last 30 years of coaching we do understand what is required -

Schools float with their coaches look at the facts - Hale was with Nedlands in the 90's now they are at another club - That will happen as a coach leaves so do the followers

PS - Oracle not sure!!!! but last year I was in Singapore not Australia - they say travel broadens the mind try it some time, they don't drink Scotch there but the do in Thailand - and Bonnie Edinburgh - but not in Joondalup

The pizza is on its way

[fulvio sammut]

I may not agree with all the sentiments expressed, but I love the fire in the belly and the sincerity of conviction.

Scot, you're not a Presbyterian minister by any chance?

[zed]

As for the progression - there is none - When one of the junior clubs applied for Second Grade this year - the answer was not a chance - so progression is not going to happen at this stage ? if not now - WHEN?

Utterly bizarre why they don't do this.Rather than promote a team that has won their league year after year they keep them in the same division. Very anti-competitive. If they were to allow a promotion/relegation system it would give some of the junior clubs something to strive for and motivate them to perform. The likes of Mandurah, Curtin are probably never going to get into the Premiership, but could potentially be competitive in 2nd grade.

Thanks for the comments - however premier in Perth is London 2 or so in the UK

It's a different game over there, very much more forward orientated and it would be quite hard to say how the standard compares. I would have said the top WA Premiership sides would be more a National 2 standard and the lower ones London 1/National 3. 1st Grade in Perth is a much higher standard than 5 - 6 years ago (pre-force).

[Hansie]

Here's an idea Mr. Scot. There is a bye weekend in June. What about trying to see if a game between Joondaulp's best and Neddies Reserve Grade?

I haven't discussed with anyone at Neddies, but thought why not?