The Beginning of the Great Divide

[chertubler]

quite amusing oracle 4 of your top 5 have some of the worst facilities in clubland now if they are run so great why have'nt they done anything about their facilities.Think you should do some homework before dribbling about other clubs finances also.

[pieter blackie]

Just a theory. Will be interesting to see what transpires.

This is my thoughts on this as someone that is relatively new to WA

1. WA have a poorly structured club comp.
The reason for that is: There are to many clubs in the Metro area so the quality of players is spread thinly between clubs this causes a lack of serious competitiveness.
The amount of clubs causes money problems. Just look at the holes we call Club Houses. I have seen primary schools in South Africa with better facilities than what we have here for our senior players!
In this small community you cannot afford to have more than 10 Clubs. 10 clubs and that's that no feeder clubs no juniors only clubs nothing, 10 clubs and nothing more.( Metro clubs)
You need at least 160 registered players to be able to field 5 senior 1 U20 and 1 U/18 team. How many clubs currently have that??
The Junior games must be played hand in hand with the seniors games. If Palmyra plays Kalamunda then everyone from U/6 to Premier grade play each other on the same day at the same venue. At the moment there is nothing of the kind not even in seniors because third grade could be playing a club without a Premier side. So how do you build club cohesion or spirit.
The kids must be able to see their heroes play but here they do not even know who their heroes are supposed to be. Brett Sheehan was at the club the other night and not even one of the U/13's knew who he was and neither did they know who Pek Cowan was??

There is no teamwork between RugbyWA and the clubs. The clubs could not even support a official RugbyWA 10's tournament they rather went and played trail games between them self. How stupid is that??

---------- Post added at 20:15 ---------- Previous post was at 20:07 ----------

Perth's junior program has been the largest in the state for some years and that's where the future of the local game lies.

And they will loose all those juniors if they do not get there act together. The sooner they start treating the Senior Club like a business the sooner we can start looking ahead.

[The Oracle]

Mr Chertubler, you would have heard the expression, "don't judge a book by its cover". Some of the clubs with what you call the "worst facilities" actually have the most money in the bank. There are land tenure and local Authority issues preventing capital expenditure. Conversely, some of the better facilities are not owned by the respective clubs and those clubs have very stretched finances.

A number of clubs have elected to have invest in coaching resources instead of bricks and mortar.

Have you done your homework?

[fulvio sammut]

Oracle, thou most exalted one, name names! Provide answers!

Which clubs have very stretched finances? How much are they in debt?

Which WA rugby clubs actually own their premises?

Which clubs have "tenure and Local Authority" issues? Why?

Which clubs have the most money in the bank? How much?

Which clubs have "invested" in coaching? How much? In what manner?

Until these and other questions are answered, we are left with just so much conjecture, wishful thinking and excuses.

And finally Oracle, what is the meaning of life, and does it always have to be divisible by 7?

[Burgs]

This is my thoughts on this as someone that is relatively new to WA

1. WA have a poorly structured club comp.
The reason for that is: There are to many clubs in the Metro area so the quality of players is spread thinly between clubs this causes a lack of serious competitiveness.
The amount of clubs causes money problems. Just look at the holes we call Club Houses. I have seen primary schools in South Africa with better facilities than what we have here for our senior players!
In this small community you cannot afford to have more than 10 Clubs. 10 clubs and that's that no feeder clubs no juniors only clubs nothing, 10 clubs and nothing more.( Metro clubs) ...

That is probably the nuts and bolts of it PB, a case of do you have a model of more Clubs of less teams/grades and diminished strength (2010) or less Clubs with more teams/grades and nationally competitive strength.

Perth has a current population of 1,659,000 and a Premier Competition of ten Clubs.
Brisbane* has a current population of 2,900,000 and a Premier Competition of ten Clubs.
Sydney has a current population of 4,500,000 and a Premier Competition of twelve Clubs.

The obvious difference being that a far greater proportion of each of the NSW and Qld populations play and support Rugby and this is reflected in Perth having 6 Second Tier Clubs, Brisbane having 18 Suburban Clubs and Sydney having 55 Suburban Clubs.

So if Sydney can only justify 12 of 67 and Brisbane 10 of 28 then what is Perth thinking trying to maintain an elite comp of 10 from 16?

If forecasts are correct then Perth is looking to expand to almost 2.5 million residents by 2026, with the population approaching 4.2 million by 2056, in the current ballpark of Brisbane and Sydney for each date respectively.

With this in mind and an appreciation for where much of that increase is coming from (ie Rugby playing nations of UK, SA and NZ) then there is an inevitable increase in WA Rugby player and supporter numbers ahead of us.

I predict that over the 2015-2056 period there will actually be a sustainable increase of total Clubs but these will be of the "Sunday arvo Subby Social" and Juniors variety in the first instance with some (and some regionals) gradually developing into Second Tier contenders. There will also be an inevitable overflow from Golden Oldies, Touch and Sevens groups into some genuine foundations for new Clubs.

However, can the competition run on vapours while we wait for the cavalry or should RWA make a tactical retreat to regroup and rebound in a few seasons time?


*Includes Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast to represent Club catchment area.

[pieter blackie]

Which WA rugby clubs actually own their premises?

As far as I know Perth owns the land that the club house is standing on and also the club house. The fields are Shire land.

[zimeric]

As far as I know Perth owns the land that the club house is standing on and also the club house. The fields are Shire land.

that would explain why my kids get dog poo all over them when they play on thursdays

[Hansie]

Having been involved in PSA Rugby for many years as well as Metro club rugby, I think the approach to create a viable feeder base for the Force and to grow rugby in WA lies in resolving one issue at a time.

PSA rugby dictate when they want to play and are totally inflexible to any RugbyWA overtures to include PSA and PSA players in the metro comp. YET PSA ask for RugbyWA refs to officiate at their games. PSA boys drop out of the club system from years 10 to 12 as they play PSA on Saturdays and many are lost to Rugby forever. I say, let's start here and ask PSA to move their games to a Friday afternoon when the year 8's and 9's play and much of the rest of the school have Friday afternoons off. During cricket season senior games start on Friday's. If they do not move, then apologise that Refs cannot be made available.

During my tenure at a PSA School we successfully introduced Friday night Rugby games with some of the biggest crowds attending games at Allen Park, Palmyra and the Foreshore ( with the aid of mobile lighting towers and early sunset kick-offs). Parents left work, watched the boys play and then still had time to head out to dinners etc. The rugby boys were supported by their basketball, soccer and hockey mates and returned the favour on Saturday mornings supporting their hockey, soccer and basketball mates and still got to club games to play metro rugby.

Solve this and the next problem will be a great one in accomodating all of the extra Rugby Players.

[palitu]

I also note that the Curtin coach and captain from last season is now playing at Wests.

How is Marty going down there? wasn't sure if he'd enjoy the change of pace...

[Burgs]

I like the idea in principle of night (evening) PSA matches Hansie, (except on those shitty mid Winter nights with that misty rain...) but I can also understand why PSA schools don't allow senior students to regularly miss Friday afternoons in arguably the two most formative years of their life. Apart from the logistics of going from two year groups to five year groups requiring transport and playing & changing facilities, you are suggesting that during Winter Sport the senior students drop thirty periods of schooling, that will never float.

I think a better option is to feature PSA in a similar way GPS is in Sydney by having the whole school play at one location throughout Saturday (building up to the 1sts in each sport) and develop relations between each of the seven schools with seven clubs to build an allegiance for them to want to play on at the end of the PSA season and when they leave school.

There will be all sorts of existing personal relationships to blur these lines, but probably the more logical geographical links (if including the Boarders) are:

Aquinas-Palmyra
Christchurch-Cottesloe
Guildford-Perth Bayswater
Hale-University
Scotch-Associates
Trinity-Wests Subiaco
Wesley-Nedlands

The reality is though, even if playing on Friday, it is a big ask to get young bodies back up to play Colts on a Saturday afternoon after a hard 1sts match. Some will, but I don't think you could call it the answer to the problems in Clubland.

We used to have some players who would head to their Club straight after 1sts but they kept warm and only really played a half of the second match, the vast majority found a parent free back yard to skull beer and chase skirt for the afternoon...

[The Oracle]

Mr Fulvio or should I call you Grasshopper? So many questions.

The meaning of life is 42, but I thought everyone knew that. Why, would take too long to explain and I'm not sure you'd understand in any case.

Lets just say the likes of Nedlands, Associates and Cottesloe are well placed financially as are Wanneroo but only thanks to the generosity of their Sugar Daddy.

All clubs except Cottesloe to my knowledge have clubhouses on Council land. Clubs such as PB, Soaks and Kalamunda actually own their facilities. The likes of Rocky, Joondalup and Palmyra have quite complex lease arrangements with the local authority. Southern Lions has just entered a similar arrangement and are likely to struggle financially for the first 2-3 years until the centre gets up and running.

It is inappropriate that I provide too many specifics other than to say that all clubs will struggle going forward as the pressures of running a club increase and it will become obvious which clubs are doing it tough as the season progresses.

[rick boyd]

As far as I know Perth owns the land that the club house is standing on and also the club house. The fields are Shire land.

Close but not quite, Pieter. Perth owns the clubrooms but has a 99 year lease with the City of Bayswater over the ground it stands on.

[chertubler]

you are quick to comment on clubs investing in coaches and players but you still need decent facilities to progress to a higher level not many quality players want to play on old paddocks and have a cold shower in a grotty changeroom .Bricks and mortar sounds better to me.If you build it they will come.

[The Oracle]

Mr Chertubler, your argument does not hold water. Nedlands has the worst shower / changeroom facilities of any club and yet has been the most successful club over the past two decades in Perth. It is financially well placed, well managed, has an enviable volunteer base, very active past player group, well run Juniors (despite suffering from the PSA situation) and find themselves in more grand finals than any other club year in year out. They must be doing something right.

Clearly the quality of shower facilities is not the driving force behind players joining clubs. You could extend this argument to the likes of Soaks, Wanneroo, Kalamunda and Cottesloe, all successful on the paddock but with less than desirable changerooms.

Conversely and based on your logic, Palmyra and Rockingham should be invincible.

[pieter blackie]

There is big things on the horizon. Give it a while maybe even as soon as next season.