New Zealand launches Pre-Emptive Strike in Rugby with new Tournament Format

[UNSEEN]

Still all about the politics and not about the game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[beige]

On the part of the provinces that is - they know that SANZAR is already working on its new competition structures.

Then again, it doesn't hurt to have a backup plan.

[welshrugbyfan]

This has the makings of a super league that hit the league boys in the 90's. Hopefully common sense will prevail.

I think I've put it on a few posts now that we need to extend the season of whatever the new competition is called. "Super 14" is just a name and yes it has history but names of comps change over the years. With an extended season and a "Heineken Cup" syle comp with pools running parallel with the regular season means the player group of each team needs to grow so more chances for local boys to get a run with each team.

We still need the local comp which IS the 2nd tier competition that feeds the Force it's local talent. What a great idea, the US, Canada and Argentina and who knows who else could have their "Super" competition and then once a month the "Heineken Cup" style pool and knockout comp could be run as well. The Guinness Premiership, Magners League, Top 14 and Italian Super 10 all play their regular season alongside the running of the Heineken Cup comp. The English and Welsh teams have the Anglo Welsh cup that runs parallel with both the other two comps as well each year (although there are rumours this will be scrapped next year).

There is also the European Challenge Cup for the teams that don't qualify for the Heineken Cup EG, Newcastle Falcons who the Force are playing soon in England.

I can only comment on the Welsh clubs here but they have the Principallity Premiership which is the same as our local club competition and say my home team Newport RFC is the feeder club for the Newport Gwent Dragons who play in the Magners League and Heineken Cup. All the Welsh teams have feeder teams as I imagine the English, Irish, Scottish, French and Irish teams do.

It's a bit like the WAFL and the GAYFL's relationship.

[AndyS]

SARU dismiss Kiwi 'breakaway unions'
Tue, 05 Aug 2008
SA Rugby have dismissed reports about a possible breakaway Super rugby tournament that would include New Zealand and Australian teams, but exclude South African Super rugby franchises... More here

NZRU, ARU won't leave SA behind
Tue, 05 Aug 2008
The New Zealand Rugby Union (NZRU) will not back a proposed replacement competition for the Super 14 rugby that excludes South Africa.
That was made clear in no uncertain terms by the NZRU's general manager of professional rugby, Neil Sorenson, who on Tuesday said that such a restructure would be at odds with the union's preferred position at the moment...More here

(and, in case there was any remaining question..)

RugbyWA happy with Super expansion
Tue, 05 Aug 2008
Rugby Western Australia (WA) on Tuesday confirmed its full support for the Australian Rugby Union (ARU) in its commitment to expand the Super 14 competition...More here

[beige]

I think I've put it on a few posts now that we need to extend the season of whatever the new competition is called.

Every report I've read says that's what will happen (and we'll hopefully find out in about two months time).

[TOCC]

This has the makings of a super league that hit the league boys in the 90's. Hopefully common sense will prevail.

this is completely different to the super league war, the super league war was based on the fact that different media organisations were fighting over the same players, this is nothing more then some local unions proposing a different idea.

The lack of alternative media organisations apart form New Corp in Aus kind of limits the potential for a super league war. We all know that FTA stations dont have the money nor intent to fight off a proposal from news corp.

[welshrugbyfan]

this is completely different to the super league war, the super league war was based on the fact that different media organisations were fighting over the same players, this is nothing more then some local unions proposing a different idea.

The lack of alternative media organisations apart form New Corp in Aus kind of limits the potential for a super league war. We all know that FTA stations dont have the money nor intent to fight off a proposal from news corp.

I said it had the makings of a similar type thing. If a large media corporation came along with lots of dollars with a whole new comp then you would see a breaking of traditional teams with competitions. That is what the Super League war was over. Bloody Packer again with his $80 000 000 for the broadcasting rights.

Players were promised good dollars to play in the Super League and it could easily happen to Union. So it's not that different.

[TOCC]

I said it had the makings of a similar type thing. If a large media corporation came along with lots of dollars with a whole new comp then you would see a breaking of traditional teams with competitions. That is what the Super League war was over. Bloody Packer again with his $80 000 000 for the broadcasting rights.

Players were promised good dollars to play in the Super League and it could easily happen to Union. So it's not that different.

yes its still very different, the main point being that players are centrally contracted to the ARU and not the individual clubs like in the super league. Which is why there were whole clubs swapping over to the new tournament.

The ARU will dictate the terms of the new tournament since they own the players.

[welshrugbyfan]

yes its still very different, the main point being that players are centrally contracted to the ARU and not the individual clubs like in the super league. Which is why there were whole clubs swapping over to the new tournament.

The ARU will dictate the terms of the new tournament since they own the players.

Well they think they own the players, is a contract worth anything anymore after the SBW fiasco?

[GIGS20]

The lack of alternative media organisations apart form New Corp in Aus kind of limits the potential for a super league war. We all know that FTA stations dont have the money nor intent to fight off a proposal from news corp.

Which brings me to a point I was going to make after watching Inside Rugby tonight.

The panel discussed this idea and did their typical argument over it blah blah blah, nothing unusual but the conversation started to turn to what SHOULD happen and everything started to feel a bit press release-ish. All the commentators basically circled the table saying yeah- we need to expand the super 14, there's no media interst in domestic competitions, we need to get money into the game with a bigger and better product for "the Media".

I sat and watched, at the end of the segment I was feeling a whole lot like I'd just heard the first response from Faifax on the way things should go.

In short Fairfax Media will be prepared to give more money for an expanded Super 14.....I guess there was a veiled implication that it would be enough money to support whatever domestic structures were currently in existence. Not long after that they discussed the June test window and basically they said we'd be better off without it.........straight from the mouth of them that's payin' the bills.

I didn't get any impression either way about adding Japan/USA/Pacific Islands/Argentina or whoever else has been suggested (anybody for Georgia?)

[TOCC]

Well they think they own the players, is a contract worth anything anymore after the SBW fiasco?

thats different again, thats a player going to another country, the whole argument about SBW's contract is whethere a court injunction from Australia would hold up in France. If we are in fact talking about a breakaway competition in Australia, then a court injunction would be able to prevent ARU contracted players joining it.

Which brings me to a point I was going to make after watching Inside Rugby tonight.

The panel discussed this idea and did their typical argument over it blah blah blah, nothing unusual but the conversation started to turn to what SHOULD happen and everything started to feel a bit press release-ish. All the commentators basically circled the table saying yeah- we need to expand the super 14, there's no media interst in domestic competitions, we need to get money into the game with a bigger and better product for "the Media".

I sat and watched, at the end of the segment I was feeling a whole lot like I'd just heard the first response from Faifax on the way things should go.

In short Fairfax Media will be prepared to give more money for an expanded Super 14.....I guess there was a veiled implication that it would be enough money to support whatever domestic structures were currently in existence. Not long after that they discussed the June test window and basically they said we'd be better off without it.........straight from the mouth of them that's payin' the bills.

I didn't get any impression either way about adding Japan/USA/Pacific Islands/Argentina or whoever else has been suggested (anybody for Georgia?)

i agree with what you say, my feeling on the whole Super12/14 issue is that, it was created pretty hastily back in 1996 to fight off the threat of the super league war, which was offering massive contracts at the time. It was aimed to keep the best rugby players in the sport of rugby, and in my eyes it has served this purpose quite effectively.

Now its time to figure out whether the current competition is the best way to move forward, in terms of fan support and financially. A expanded competition including teams from Japan and USA might boost income but its not really going to do much for local support, initially it might have novelty factor but what the S14 needs to focus on is the tribal support factor.

This is something that AFL and NRL have that rugby union does not have which is mostly due to the structure of the Super14 and Tri-nations competitions. IMHO the most attractive product that could be offered to media organisations is one which was proposed by the NZ clubs.

It has a healthy mix of home games and local derbies which encourage the tribal factor, whilst also throwing in the odd semi-international game against teams from NZ and RSA. It has the best of both worlds, it allows the inclusions of Japan and USA teams without putting to much pressure on the travel schedules of the state sides.

I think the S14 needs a big revamp to really progress into the future, they need more of a local game developed whilst still maintaining and developing the international factor.

[beige]

Now its time to figure out whether the current competition is the best way to move forward, in terms of fan support and financially. A expanded competition including teams from Japan and USA might boost income but its not really going to do much for local support, initially it might have novelty factor but what the S14 needs to focus on is the tribal support factor.

I think it needs both.

I actually quite like the model that SANZAR has been talking about in the media for when the 15th team comes in - you know, the one where everyone plays everyone else once and then plays return legs against the other 4 teams from their own country (obviously the 15th franchise will be grouped with Australia, regardless of where it actually ends up going).

[GIGS20]

This is something that AFL and NRL have that rugby union does not have which is mostly due to the structure of the Super14 and Tri-nations competitions. IMHO the most attractive product that could be offered to media organisations is one which was proposed by the NZ clubs.

I don't think so TOCC. I respect your views but the telecast rights of the ARC prove that there really isn't a media organisation which is hugely interested in the next tier. however this next tier as suggested by NZ is a lot more costly. I criticise it for the reasons that Rod Kafer criticised it on the panel. It looks internally, and there just isn't the money internally. When they talked about expansion (and remember I'm saying this was the Fairfax Press release) they talked about new markets, not more product in existing markets. This is not necessarily the best thing for the game, but it IS what our current media partner are interested in, and therefore it is what will be the subject of any biddibg war that might happen. The problems that beset the club competition need to be fixed without costing too much extra money, because reality says that club rugby will only ever be televised in NSW and Qld.

[TOCC]

I don't think so TOCC. I respect your views but the telecast rights of the ARC prove that there really isn't a media organisation which is hugely interested in the next tier. however this next tier as suggested by NZ is a lot more costly. I criticise it for the reasons that Rod Kafer criticised it on the panel. It looks internally, and there just isn't the money internally. When they talked about expansion (and remember I'm saying this was the Fairfax Press release) they talked about new markets, not more product in existing markets. This is not necessarily the best thing for the game, but it IS what our current media partner are interested in, and therefore it is what will be the subject of any biddibg war that might happen. The problems that beset the club competition need to be fixed without costing too much extra money, because reality says that club rugby will only ever be televised in NSW and Qld.

im not talking about another tier, fundamentally its still the Super14, its just re-organised into pools with a larger emphasis on local derbies.

For instance, the Force would play all the Australian teams almost twice in the year, where as they would only play half of the NZ and RSA in that year, then play the other half in the next year..

If that makes sense.

[TOCC]

I think it needs both.

I actually quite like the model that SANZAR has been talking about in the media for when the 15th team comes in - you know, the one where everyone plays everyone else once and then plays return legs against the other 4 teams from their own country (obviously the 15th franchise will be grouped with Australia, regardless of where it actually ends up going).

yes i actually quite like that concept as well