Giteau's influence persuades Edmonds

[blueandblack]

not that I'm joining in the whole gits bashing thang, but how can a fan be objective in the analysis of what they are a fan of? is that like an oxleymoron?

robyn is critical of drew too, so it can be done.

[Jehna]

not that I'm joining in the whole gits bashing thang, but how can a fan be objective in the analysis of what they are a fan of? is that like an oxleymoron?

If that's the case Coach, then we might as well shut this site down or acknowledge that our friends from GTT are entirely correct when they believe we see everything with rose coloured glasses when we look at the Force. CLearly we can never offer any legitimate criticism because we're too busy being a 'fan' of the team.

I absolutely think that it is possible to provide an objective analysis of something you're a fan of. I'm not saying it isn't extremely difficult, but if you're able to identify the influence your favouritism has on the anaylsis then you can remove it. Also, it depends on your ability to look at something from alternative perspectives. I've spent my whole life being forced to consider options and alternative views. I don't have to agree with them, but I can understand them and acknowledge them. Consequently, I can use them to offer an objective analysis.

I'm a fan of Giteau as a person and a player. I think he is a great guy who is geniunely devoted to his rugby and his team and pushes himself to the limits. I also think he is extremely talented as a player and is able to read and manipulate play in a manner that is rare in rugby today. However, I have not forgotten the basics of rugby. I am not blind to the rules. I am not blind to how a game can be won. I am not blind to what is considered to be smart play and what is not. That is my objective criteria against which I can measure Gits' actions. That is the criteria I use when assessing his performance and not my 'fan' appreciation of him as a person and him as a player.

It is a skill which many of us exercise everyday. I can easily say that I love my parents but I certainly do not like the way they act in many situations and towards others. I can still measure their actions without being blinded by my love for them. We may hate our job but can be objective about why and so stil continue working.

ANyway...rant aside...i do believe it is possible and I'd like to think I apply this here. I'm not saying Gits doesn't make mistakes. I'm not saying he is perfect. I am saying that in my mind he hasn't done anything to warrant the level of criticism aimed at him. But, if you want to blame him, then you can't possibly blame him alone for the Force playing like shit. There are just a few other players and members of this team that should wear some of it too...

[Darren]

I was kinda hoping the is that like an oxleymoron? bit may have helped convey the conviction with which I made my previous post

[travelling_gerry]

No. This is an Olxeymoron.

[Swee_82]

No. This is an Olxeymoron.

Here's Another

[mudskipper]

Anthony is a good player, another young player who needs game time in a competitive Provincial environment to step up to Super Rugby.

Totally agree these guys are just spot developing as well without an ARC or equivalent comp... It’s a huge disadvantage when they line up against their NZ and SA peers...

---------- Post added at 10:37 ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 ----------

You heard it first from Mudskipper.

A companion volume to his famous hits
"the Brumbies will massacre the Force"
and "The Reds are shit and won't win anything this year"

if you're going to quote me please use the words that I used... that would then make it a quote would it not?

[Burgs]

As:
a) Vice Captain,
b) a Senior Player,
c) a Senior Wallaby,
d) the leader of the Backs,
e) the Kicker,
f) the Flyhalf &
g) on a shit load more money than anyone else,

Gits can well expect to get more of the criticism levelled at him for any poor performance by the Backline.

[Cowboy]

Giteau - lets beat the crap out of the little twerp.

Seriously though Matt Giteau has his praises sung everywhere you look in the media. Yet the backline he is commanding, which we are all told when they are firing is purely a result of his organisation and brilliance, has been performing poorly. Why is it that when the backline is poor according to the media and some opinions it's everyone else's fault, but when it's good he is given all credit?

However there is nothing new in this almost every established Wallaby star seems to end up somehow immune to criticism, and the suggestion that someone has outplayed them heresy.
Giteau also represents the Forces greatest mistake of trying to buy sucess rather than build a club and a culture. Maybe it will only be once he and any others that were only here for money have gone that the Force can finally build a culture and a team.

[Tazzmania]

Giteau - lets beat the crap out of the little twerp.

Giteau also represents the Forces greatest mistake of trying to buy sucess rather than build a club and a culture. Maybe it will only be once he and any others that were only here for money have gone that the Force can finally build a culture and a team.

Unfortunately sport has become a saleable product, as such to derive the most benefit you have to have the best or at least a competitive product. If we did not buy the players we have and contiunue to try and buy the best that is avaialble and willing to come to Perth, the product will not be viable and like many business that have the best intentions at heart it could land up against the wall.

The sport needs money to survive and sponsorship is easier to attain when you are doing well or seen to be getting there. Giteau was the best move we have made and has brought in benefits that are not only measurable in dollar terms. The sponsors want to see him and others on the sports pages with their logos on the shirts, if we turn around and use the local players in a few years we will dissapear from the super 14 spectrum as they will not tolerate a side that is mere chicken fodder to other teams. Even with the players we have bought we still struggle and are yet to make a final.

I support the board in seeking talent wherever they can find it. We are competing against a strong AFL holding in WA and we need every high profile person we can get to help keep sponsors and spectators happy and make sure that our dream when we all stood in the middle of Subiaco and asked for the Super 14 team in Perth, stays and remains a reality.

[Cowboy]

Unfortunately sport has become a saleable product, as such to derive the most benefit you have to have the best or at least a competitive product. If we did not buy the players we have and contiunue to try and buy the best that is avaialble and willing to come to Perth, the product will not be viable and like many business that have the best intentions at heart it could land up against the wall.

The sport needs money to survive and sponsorship is easier to attain when you are doing well or seen to be getting there. Giteau was the best move we have made and has brought in benefits that are not only measurable in dollar terms. The sponsors want to see him and others on the sports pages with their logos on the shirts, if we turn around and use the local players in a few years we will dissapear from the super 14 spectrum as they will not tolerate a side that is mere chicken fodder to other teams. Even with the players we have bought we still struggle and are yet to make a final.

I support the board in seeking talent wherever they can find it. We are competing against a strong AFL holding in WA and we need every high profile person we can get to help keep sponsors and spectators happy and make sure that our dream when we all stood in the middle of Subiaco and asked for the Super 14 team in Perth, stays and remains a reality.

I would contrast the Force with the Brumbies at startup. When the Brumbies started they attracted players from the Reds and the Tahs who mostly were considered the second/third option in their respective positions. As a team they had a great desire to prove themselves to be good enough. From this begining they went on to become the most sucessful Aussie team.
The Force have had far more problems in creating a team which has a sense of needing to prove themselves or to represent WA or anything else really. Somehow as a group to me there is just a sense of something lacking, be it pride or passion etc, they just seem to be going through the motions a bit.
I am not against recruiting players from interstate or a couple from overseas, but we need all players to want to be here and appreciate the opportunity given to them.

There are many ways to land a buisness against a wall, one is to not put enough resources into developing it and another is to overstrech your resources. Some of the decisions taken at startup are now haunting us, like playing at Subiaco. I happen to think that the players we lured here for the cash have delayed the emergence of a team culture (even if it wass an underdog seige mentality, something would be better than nothing) and has increased the potential for player exodus. Even in a buisness sense I see this as opting for a short term cash in rather than building towards a future.

[AndyS]

However, one thing not to forget in comparing the Brumbies and Force is that the Brumbies were set up not long after the game went professional. They weren't just going out to prove they were better than rated, they were intent on proving they were worth paying. By comparison thirteen years on, all the players have known nothing else and the money involved is enormous. I am sure many just take the view that, if the Force doesn't pay the price, someone else will. But they are already professional sportsmen that in many cases have had smoke blown up their arses for years - they feel entitled, rate themselves very highly and feel they should have a say in everything around them. There is little pressure from behind them, as they are the chosen professionals and everyone else not in a S14 team is an amateur that poses no real threat. Risk all that for your employer du jour - well, only enough to prevent comment and maintain perceived value...

[Tazzmania]

I would contrast the Force with the Brumbies at startup. When the Brumbies started they attracted players from the Reds and the Tahs who mostly were considered the second/third option in their respective positions. As a team they had a great desire to prove themselves to be good enough. From this begining they went on to become the most sucessful Aussie team.
The Force have had far more problems in creating a team which has a sense of needing to prove themselves or to represent WA or anything else really. Somehow as a group to me there is just a sense of something lacking, be it pride or passion etc, they just seem to be going through the motions a bit.
I am not against recruiting players from interstate or a couple from overseas, but we need all players to want to be here and appreciate the opportunity given to them.

There are many ways to land a buisness against a wall, one is to not put enough resources into developing it and another is to overstrech your resources. Some of the decisions taken at startup are now haunting us, like playing at Subiaco. I happen to think that the players we lured here for the cash have delayed the emergence of a team culture (even if it wass an underdog seige mentality, something would be better than nothing) and has increased the potential for player exodus. Even in a buisness sense I see this as opting for a short term cash in rather than building towards a future.

Point taken regards the Brumbies, however, we need to bear in mind that was a different "era", professionalism had just started in rugby and to a large extent most of the sides were still loping along with old structures, the Force have been thrown into a much more competitive, cut throat world of rugby than the Brumbies were, so a real comparison is unfair.

[Burgs]

I've found it best not to compare anything with anything lately...

[Cowboy]

I am also making my comparisons with the wonderful advantage of hindsight, so much easier to know what to do once it is done.
Professionalism especially in rugby has complicated things, yet I have learnt that some basics also never change, like no player is bigger than the team etc.

The challenge is to build a buisness and a team on these values learnt the hard way over time. And to attract players who are willing to accept them because they realise doing so is in their best interest in the long term. There are no easy answers but I look forward to watching a Force team that shows up to play with passion and intent every game. I think we all do.

[mudskipper]

Point taken regards the Brumbies, however, we need to bear in mind that was a different "era", professionalism had just started in rugby and to a large extent most of the sides were still loping along with old structures, the Force have been thrown into a much more competitive, cut throat world of rugby than the Brumbies were, so a real comparison is unfair.

No it was still like for like as all players were just becoming professional. The Brumbies got to the final in their fifth year losing to the Blues and won the championship in their 6th year 2001 and then won again in 2004 their 9th year... with a string of semis and finals showings…

You’re earnestly talking down any comparison... but the professional era comment is just a false lead…. and offers coach Mitchell no sanctuary… There is plenty to subjectively compare…