Why was the ARC canned?

[NTT]

as i see this thread moses, it started out about a former perth spirit player now performing on the tv show gladiators and decended into a slanging match about who got what grant for the ARC. it is barely a secret that certain nsw clubs were unhappy about losing players from the shute shield and asked for ARU compensation. from my limited education i can work out from the figures posted in this thread that nswru received $11.5mil, spent $6mil on development programmes, $300k on the ARC and $5mil on player payments. approximately $200k leftover. now factor in the fact that most if not all shute shield clubs have clubrooms filled with poker machines to also help fund the clubs that asked for compensation and perpetual nswru loss making and you can see why we take the view of nsw ineptitude. it is also convenient for you to say that melbourne lost more money than anyone else. well duh, the player relocation costs were always going to be substantial.

[Flamethrower]

I'm open to someone having a different opinion, it's just nice when they also have a rational reason upon which to base it. In this thread you and gerry have proven to have no clue nor inclination to listen to reason, which does become frustrating.

Feel free to point out where I have "proven to have no clue" in this thread.

Moses, I think you need a little lie down and maybe some more of your chill pills.
You have started lashing out at everyone again like a 5 year old girl having a tantrum.

[NTT]

the figures TOCC posted state that rugbywa received $5mil for player payments and the ARC. according to this rugby wa received no development programme money yet still managed to put $2mil of their own cash into the club competition, while turning a profit in both the ARC and super 14 ($900 000+). so if nswru received $11.5mil in ARU grants yet posted a lost and rugby wa received $5mil and posted a profit, who's the more inept administration?
i know you'll shoot holes in my argument but before you do, you said to read this thread. i did this and used the figures posted in this thread to summarise what you wanted me to learn. i would have used the figures you posted but you haven't seemed to back your gerry bashing up with anything except questions about his character because the discussion seems to have hit a nerve with you.
prove me wrong champ .... explain the $11.5mil grant and where it was used or i'll keep assuming nswru is inept. i mean TOCC seems to know more about nswru grants than nsw....

[waratahjesus]

most shute shield clubs are community clubs that run at big losses NTT, there is powerful clubs with poker machines or university backing but these are quite few and far between!

if nsw got 11.5 and perth got 5 million and nsw was running three teams and perth was running 1, to be fair shouldnt nsw have gotten 15million? what is the actual argument?

[innocent quokka]

Not likely. Arguing with 2 year olds doesn't interest me

he's 49 actually.

[Moses]

as i see this thread moses, it started out about a former perth spirit player now performing on the tv show gladiators and decended into a slanging match about who got what grant for the ARC.

You're right, it did go that way but you missed the constructive section in the middle where many reasons for the ARC's failure and improvements that could have turned it around were raised.

Then gerry started trying to back up his belief that the ARC failed due to "ARU politics, NSWRU ineptitude and loss making" and tried to back up this assertion with the fact that NSWRU were given money to run three teams in the comp. Hardly groundbreaking is it? I mean running a professional competition with money, how inept.

To put the blame for the national competition's failure squarely on NSWRU is just plain wrong. Pulling a figure off their Balance Sheet without knowing what it was for, how it was spent and claiming this as evidence of their ineptitude is misleading, then writing the whole excercise off as a fishing expidition is just lame.

By all means have an opinion, just try to base it on relevant facts. The official reason for the failure was the lost money and dwindling reserves, with the biggest loss coming from Melbourne!

[Moses]

the figures TOCC posted state that rugbywa received $5mil for player payments and the ARC. according to this rugby wa received no development programme money yet still managed to put $2mil of their own cash into the club competition, while turning a profit in both the ARC and super 14 ($900 000+). so if nswru received $11.5mil in ARU grants yet posted a lost and rugby wa received $5mil and posted a profit, who's the more inept administration?

lets just assume that these numbers are correct, (11.5m / 3) = 3.83m < 5m
So, according to these numbers, Spirit got 1.17m more than the average NSW club and then made a profit. That said, I don't believe the number are correct. The 10.9m grant was more likely for S14, ARC, and Club expenditure, and the 5m was probably part Force budget and part Spirit.

i know you'll shoot holes in my argument but before you do, you said to read this thread. i did this and used the figures posted in this thread to summarise what you wanted me to learn. i would have used the figures you posted but you haven't seemed to back your gerry bashing up with anything except questions about his character because the discussion seems to have hit a nerve with you.
prove me wrong champ .... explain the $11.5mil grant and where it was used or i'll keep assuming nswru is inept. i mean TOCC seems to know more about nswru grants than nsw....

I'm not an accountant, nor do I care much for Balance Sheets having prepared more than my fair share of them, however TOCC gave a pretty good explanation.

do you understand the concept of professional rugby, you realise the so called 'grants' from the ARU are professional rugby funding among other things. By that i mean the ARU takes all the money from Broadcast agreements and then divides it up amongst provinces. They need to be reimbursed for the cost of running a professional rugby side somehow dont they?

Just have a look at RugbyWA annual reports(if you actually could) and you will find a nice little $5million grant in there from the ARU.

The QRU got close to $7.5 million from the ARU in 2007, $450,000 for the runnning of the ARC, $2.5million for community rugby and $4.5million for the cost of running a professional team. The cost of the ARC was minimised in QLD since the Tornadoes could play out of the QRU owned Ballymore Stadium.

NSWRU received $10,900,000 in 2007, $5million is for player wages, $1.5 million for the ARC(it was inclusive in the grant) and $4million for community rugby.

Yes the QRU and NSWRU spend $2.5 and $4 million respectively on there community rugby comps every year, its not hardly suprising, between the two they generate 90% of rugby players in the county. The NSWRU and QRU do not go running to the ARU asking for this money, it is part of the ARU's communtiy rugby development plan.

[Moses]

Feel free to point out where I have "proven to have no clue" in this thread.

I suppose to single you out was a bit harsh considering you hadn't posted anything in the thread till this page, it's more the selective Cheers and Smite that implies you agree or disagree with others' points that lack rationality

[Flamethrower]

Moses , you keep telling us that everyone has it wrong. Can you show us what is correct and exactly what did happen to the money.

[waratahjesus]

moses did just point out why your point of view is ill informed and hastily thought through, if you could post and actual single point of view that states a point as to why nswru should be to blame then moses or myself will probably be able to show you why we disagree!

its not an argument or muckraking we just feel that your engaging in Tah bashing without any actual valid argument, were defending our team and rightly so.

perth would not exist without NSW rugby, the grants you have had to set up your team are from revenue acquired by the other three unions and the wallabies so its bit rich to complain about the largest catchment area in the country getting revenue to develop more players!

[Flamethrower]

Can you tell us why the NSWRU shouldn't be blamed.

You are not bringing anything to the table if you need us to make points for you to disagree with.

Come on WJ I thought you were pathetic, I never realized just how pathetic.

Put something up to show why we have got it so wrong.

[Swee_82]

Could anyone point me in the direction of the RugbyWA 2007 annual report for a bit of compare and contrast? Can only find the 05/06 ones on the website- maybe a RugbyWA member has a copy?

Unfortunately the NSWRU one doesn't really say where the ARC losses that required funding to the tune of $1.54 million were incurred- the QRU at least have broken down income and expenditure from the tournament itself, so at the end of the day, the numbers (as reported) balance.
Would like to see if RugbyWA broke down it's income and expenditure specifically for the ARC/Spirit- Yes, they only hosted one team, but that one team had alot of travel to do which would go some way to evening things up. Did they attract better sponsorship than the other ARC teams to keep them afloat?


Every other union had to resort to the "loan" scheme, which has since turned into a grant- I guess that's one of the fishy elements about it- the guarantee to underwrite losses (our current landlords at Subi have just negoiated one of those with the government, and you know how much we love them)- if you were to look at it cynically, there would be double the motivation for some to see the comp bomb- not only to shore up Shute Shield as the next highest level after S14, but so the loan never had to be repaid. Please note I'm not saying this DID happen, I assume there'd HAVE TO be some oversight by the ARU, but there's an opportunity there- I'll bet anything that could be written off as an expense of the ARC, however tangentially, was.
In Qlds case, at least it's easy to see "we spent this, this and this...we made this... we're $462k short...thank you ARU".
With 2 teams they still managed to generate $56k more revenue than NSWs 3 (Thats revenue, so it leaves aside arguments about not paying for Ballymore)- since there's no breakdown from the NSWRU it's not easy to see where the shortfall is- sponsorship, tickets, corporates ?? It's harder to compare costs since QRU have the advantage of owning Ballymore- I don't have the slightest idea what Parramatta Stadium or North Sydney Oval go for, so I can't tell if that would account for the proportional difference in costs of the 2 unions.
Unfortunately they're the only 2 reports I can easily find, though the Victorian Union is a completely separate kettle of fish so not really a good comparison.

[Moses]

Moses , you keep telling us that everyone has it wrong.

I never said everyone has it wrong, however I disagree with the view that NSWRU is to blame for the ARC failing. There were many other mitigating factors in the comps failure, most notably the Melbourne team.

Can you show us what is correct and exactly what did happen to the money.

Presumably they spent it on running rugby in NSW, as it was intended. Just because they receive money from the ARU does not mean they caused the ARC to fail.

Indeed, all state unions receive money from the ARU, much like all State Governments receive money from the Federal govt. This is because the ARU collects the big money from TV rights then re-distributes this money to the states, much like the Government collects income taxes then gives this to the states as grants.

Lets say the federal government have given Victoria $50bn to run their state in 2007, with part of that grant being allocated for a water plan. Now lets say that the river murray is dying, gerry's argument would be that Victoria killed the Murray because of creative accountants and inneptitude. The logic does not follow.

[Flamethrower]

If you want to use the last part of your post as an example, you could leave out the accounting and just use the inept part. I would then agree with you. It has been inept government that has let the Murray River / Drain get in the state that it is today. The warning signs have been there for 40 years at least.

So there fore the NSWRU are not dodgy with their money, they are just plain blind and stupid to the signs.

[Moses]

If you want to use the last part of your post as an example, you could leave out the accounting and just use the inept part. I would then agree with you. It has been inept government that has let the Murray River / Drain get in the state that it is today. The warning signs have been there for 40 years at least.

So there fore the NSWRU are not dodgy with their money, they are just plain blind and stupid to the signs.

So you'd only blame the Victorian state government for the Murray running dry, when the majority of the water comes from Queensland and flows through NSW?

No wonder I'm having trouble getting through to you.