Well, that's me on this subject then ...
Agreed but I'm somewhat confused by one particular aspect.Originally Posted by fulvio sammut
Whilst recognising that what we read in the press and see/hear on the tv and radio is a filtered and selective presentation of the facts, I would like to understand what is meant by -
"not satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that the police officers who went to break up a brawl outside the Old Bailey Tavern in Joondalup in February last year were acting lawfully"
In my simplistic way what I see is that police are called to a pub because others are brawling, some of the brawlers then turn on the police, and they get off any charges because the police may "not have been acting lawfully" ?
Of course what they should have said was "Gentlemen please stop fighting or we may have to call the girl guides to sort this out".
I occasionally frequented the Old Bailey up until last February - not so much through choice but lack of it. My son lives in Joondalup and there were only two pubs in Joondalup at that time. The OB was usually full of what I can only describe as pommie soccer louts, dressed in their team's colours, congregating in menacing groups for anyone who wasn't part of their crowd. Age group was teenage to old age. And that was on a Sunday afternoon. If there's a social scientist on twf it would be interesting to get some insights on demographics
I trust you get the picture on the predominant nature of the crowd that attended the OB around the time of the incident. I haven't been back but have no reason to think it will have changed. The police will have been aware of the situation they were heading into at the time and their behaviour was probably influenced by what they expected as well as by what they faced upon arrival.
Fortunately the Irish bar in Joondalup (Paddy Malone's) got its licence shortly afterwards so there was subsequently a somewhat more convivial place to have a beer with my son.
............ to the next point (stay with me on this one). The other pub (other than JB's and PM's that is) in which I have a beer is also in the northern suburbs - near Hillarys. Frequented by a variety of people. Some of whom know the Mcleod's, having played soccer with them in past times or just through other pubs they used to frequent. The views in the pub are divided between the silent-ish majority who share the chief constables view on the verdict, and those who think the Mcleods are a nice bunch of guys who deserved to get off. Generally those who played soccer with them or are from the fraternity that "hate coppers", anti-establishment to the core.
Demographics.
I wonder what the demographics of the jury might have been and whether there is some process by which a suitable cross section of society is guaranteed ?
Call me a snob if you like, but someone who delivers a flying headbut is not in his first brawl.
I don't think there is a better system we can replace it with; It has good and bad points - what you said is spot on - The evidence is presented and a decision is made-The subjective part is the interpretation of the evidence. Although the judge is there to rule on admisability of evidence etc etc it is still the people that make up the jury who have the final say. It's just my feeling that the final say in this instance is a reflection on what I see is a general feeling of disdain or contempt law and order, and those who try to uphold law and order. I've been wrong before.
emotions have run high on this,I think people should take a deep breath & see how things pan out.The judicial process may not be over
sometimes the law appears to be an ass
maybe this is one of those occaisions
They'll get theirs i'm sure of it, but it is overly frustrating see Perth turn into a feral city! I've alway been Yep Perth is Awsome i will never live anywhere else... But its going to shizzit!
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rubbish
Lonzy give it a break,I can understand your frustration
some people may also be frustrated at the death of an Aboridginal elder in the back of a police van travelling from Laverton to kalgoorlie for example
that didnt get satuation coverage inthe West did it?
Perth is no more feral than any other australian city
Last edited by brokendown gunfighter; 14-03-09 at 19:03.
It is, have you been in northbridge? or the city? after dark? even in the city during the day. Not to mention all the outer suburbs, last new years a group of my friends were set apon by a group of kids at Hillarys, they were just walking home and this group of thugs came up started kicking the crap out of them, I was walking behind the group so I wasn't involved I was able to get the cops to come and help. My cousin had a party gate crashed with about 3 cars getting all the windows smashed, several people bottled cops came and had to lock the kids in the house while they were sorting out the gate crashers who ended up on the roof smashing the tiles. And i am sure there are a lot more incidents its feral it really is!
any ways back to topic ... here is what an actual cop has writen on facebook, for those who are not on the facebook band wagon, a long read but well worth it!
Firstly can I say the reason I am not using my real name because the use of Facebook by Police officers is frowned upon by the organisation as it can have some serious security implications for both the individual and the organisation. This is a policy I agree with.
Secondly my views are just that, mine. I don't speak for the whole force and I certainly don't speak for the organisation. However my feelings on this are by no means unique and having spoken with a lot of officers over the last few days so I know a lot of what I am about to say is felt by many.
Matt and Katrina, hopefully you will read this. Can I say how immensely proud of you we all are. Your strength, your resolve, the dignity you have both shown; Matt your determination to get better and continue in the job you clearly love so much is a true inspiration. I have never worked with you but from what I have seen and from what others have told me it is my loss that I will not have the privilege of working with you on the front line. No matter what the future holds there are at least 5000 people who will be behind you both every step of the way.
I was on duty elsewhere in the state the night Matt was attacked. News filtered through very quickly that an officer had been seriously injured in a fight at Joondlaup. It is the kind of news I have heard many times before and every time it makes me feel sick to the stomach. There was the usual clamour to find out more information, to find who it was and to find out if there was anything we could do to help. Information was scarce, when the name came through I had few seconds of relief that it was not someone I knew. However my offsider that night knew Butch very well and for him the next few hours were particularly hard. As we always do we got on with job at hand, after all most of the city was still sleeping and still needed policing.
Over the next few days we all began to find out what had happened and most importantly that those responsible had been charged. We heard there was possibly footage of the attack and that the evidence against the attackers was strong. Most of us then put our faith in the justice system that had always been there for us in the past. However the main focus at the time was Matt's health. There were conflicting reports about how serious the injuries were, some that it was not too serious and some that Matt was not going to make it. Despite not knowing Matt, to me he was still one of our own and it was horrible to think of the pain his family were going through.
Over the next year we all saw, largely through the media, that Matt was slowly recovering.
As the trial approached I was certainly confident that justice would prevail. As with any jury trail there were those lingering doubts but I certainly didn't see the dark clouds of injustice gathering on the horizon.
In the last week of the trial those clouds began to grow and there was a feeling of the impending storm. In my mind were the recent Jay Wragg and Bill Rowe cases, both were frustrating for me not only as a Police Officer but also as a citizen and both had shaken my belief in the Justice system. I thought we should not be losing these big cases we should be winning them. I know as well as anyone that some times we win, sometimes we lose and sometimes we get it very wrong. But why are seemingly certain straight forward cases being lost?
When the news came out about the verdict I felt immediate anger and despair, I shouted at the computer screen. For a little while I thought that maybe it was a typo and that the 'not' had been put in by mistake. Soon after I started getting txt's, Facebook messages and equally I was sending them out. It was clear that something had gone massively wrong.
Soon after the verdict was given the video of the incident was released. Watching it was hard. It was hard because I have been in that exact same position so many times before. I have been front-line for my whole career and cant even beging to remember all the fights I have been to and broken up. It could have so easily been me in Matt's shoes that night. I had to watch the video dozens of times to fully take it in.
Let me try an explain how a typical pub/club fight goes. Two groups start on each other and a fight breaks out. Numerous people call the Police. If the police turn up and the fight is still going on one of two things will happen, they will stop fighting and run off (or pretend nothing happened) or they will get together and turn on the Police. In those situations the Police are normally out numbered and getting control can be very hard.
The Police have a legal duty to restore order, to maintain the peace and to protect lives and property. They also have a duty to protect themselves and each other from harm and injury. Those laws and principles are enshrined in legislation some of which goes back hundreds of years. Nearly all police officers do not shy away from that duty and will time and time again put themselves in harms way to stop others getting hurt. This is always done in the knowledge that the law is firmly on their side.
What I saw at the start of that video was a fairly typical scene where the Police had come under attack from a group of drunken, mindless idiots. It is a little unclear but it looked like at that stage it was 4 police on to 3 offenders, in Police terms that is not a good place to be. Ideally you need 3 officers for each offender. For the police it is not about who can fight the hardest and longest (that is the mantra of the morons that start these fights), for the Police it is about controlling a situation as quickly and as safely as possible, and that is done through numbers, training and if necessary with use of force options. In my mind the video really speaks for itself and there is not much I can say about it.
We now need to find out what went wrong. I don't know enough about what happened in the court yet. My guess is that having spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on the best defence QC's in the country it was fairly easy for them to introduce an element of reasonable doubt in to the jurors minds.
I think it is unfair to blame the jurors, in the end they were just 11 people in a completely alien environment asked to make a decision based on two opposing arguments. However wrong that final decision was it can't be changed now.
I am angry that they (the defence team) were even allowed to use and exploit the self defence argument. I am sure there must have been many legal arguments over this in closed court but why in earth where they allowed to turn it back on the officers who were just there doing their duty? I am annoyed that the defence, yet again, has months and months to construct their story; to counsel and advice their clients and then only have to reveal what their defence is during the trial. Yet the prosecution have to fully disclose their case and evidence long before the trial begins. The playing field needs levelling to make it fair for both sides. Those arrested for a crime should either give their defences or alibi's when first questioned and if they refuse to speak about it or change their story in court then the Magistrate, Judge or Jury should be allowed to draw a negative inference from their evidence. I firmly believe that if these simple measures were in place before Matt was attacked then the McLeod's would be locked up now.
I feel a dangerous precedent has now been set. A potentially catastrophic hole in the law has been found and exploited. The incident at Carnigies last night is proof that there are those out there who will use it against the Police. Essentially our job has just become much much harder and certainly more dangerous. The law that many of us work so hard to uphold has now turned against us and we feel exposed and vulnerable.
What has tempered the anger slightly, well for me anyway, is the huge amount of public and media support that is being shown. In all of my career I have never seen anything like it. I have watched the numbers on this group go through the roof with an open mouth. I can tell you now it has not gone unnoticed and the support is very very much appreciated and needed. All too often it feels like we are doing this job alone, but not today. Thank you.
There are always those out there who will hate people like me for doing the job I do. For those people - I shut out your noise a long long time ago. I don't see your hatred, your vitriolic words glide effortlessly around me. I don't do the job for you I do the job to protect society from people like you.
Finally, 11 individuals may have found these 3 men not guilty however thousands upon thousands of ordinary people have made the right decision.
I hope to see many of you at the rally (there had better be one!)
"Believe in the best, think your best, study your best, have a goal for your best, never be satisfied with less than your best, try your best, and in the long run things will turn out for the best."
been to Sydney or Melbourne?
Yes they will Lonzy yes they will, it's Karma. It took 15 years before OJ finally got what was coming to him.
I agree 100% with you that fewer people everyday take responsibilty for their actions. It's a huge problem that is getting worse with every generation. Look at the over crowded civil courts, full of people trying to make someone else responsibile. There is money to be made there and many people starting with attorney's abuse the system. Often times settlements are made just to avoid huge expenses and negative publicity.
How many parents today are quick to blame the schools and teachers for the problems that their kids have? It's not the school or teachers that failed, it the parents that failed but won't accept that fact.
Oh and what about the good old politicians? They are the best at blaming someone or something for things that are wrong. They take it even 1 step further by taking credit for the good things that they had nothing to do with.
What's really sad is I don't see it changing anytime soon. Most people believe that the government, schools, courts, the community should be doing more for us. Instead of initiating the change themselves. I guess we can all start by taking responsibility for our actions, like Lonzy did when she got behind the wheel of the car when she shouldn't have. Instill in our children the sense of personal responsibility and slowly we will change the world.
Been there and Yep they are also feral! But my point is Perth wasn't this bad 5 years ago it was so much better 10 years ago however i was only 12 then, and probably not as aware of the issues in Perth but definately 5 years ago parti was not as bad as it is now i uped to catch trains by my self after dark back then not a worry in the world these days i just won't even during the day!
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Thanks Larry I have to say getting busted by the cops was the real kick in the arse I neded to sort out my drinking, definately a wake up call! But when I was pulled over I was respectful, yes sir, no sir, do you want me take of my shoes? ...(long story!) I had to get a pat down before getting put in the back of the paddy wagon they asked if I had anything in my shoes... you get the picture! The two cops that pulled me over were really nice though, which suprised me, they showed me respect even though I put myself in a stupid situation which could have killed me or someone else. But still they treated me very well and were like damn you've screwed up getting into the police force in the near future. But they were like don't worry you can still get in, its just going to take a little longer. It was great they were giving me advice and everything, although the circumstances could have been better, it was a great experience.
"Believe in the best, think your best, study your best, have a goal for your best, never be satisfied with less than your best, try your best, and in the long run things will turn out for the best."
http://www.thewest.com.au/default.as...ntentID=129987
Police injured in a brawl outside Carnegies this morning were allegedly taunted by their assailants and told that any injuries sustained by police would be deemed by a court to be self defence.
In an event chillingly similar to the Joondalup brawl that left Const Matthew Butcher partly paralysed, one officer was allegedly jumped on by a 46 year-old man after the officer used a taser to control another member of the man's family.
The brawl resulted in the three police officers requiring hospital treatment for their injuries that included back, thigh and knee injuries and a suspected broken finger. Two of the officers are now on sick leave.
Police officers across the State have been texting one another today following news of the taunts.
In response, Police Commissioner Karl O’Callaghan has called for calm.
The latest assaults come less than two days after a jury acquitted three men of assaulting Const. Butcher. The three men accused of that assault were acquitted after pleading self-defence.
It is understood upon arrest this morning, the four offenders in the alleged Carnegies brawl told police that they would get away with the alleged assaults by pleading self-defence.
Mr O’Callaghan said it was time for Parliament to do something to protect WA police officers.
“The Parliament of Western Australia needs to pass laws to protect police officers because if we don’t we will get the police force we deserve,” Mr O’Callaghan said.
“This has just got to stop. We will await the laws, all we can do until then is go about our business, but I do warn if we don’t get protection it will affect the way that police do their business.
“There is an element of community out there who’ve got no respect and know no boundaries and they attack police officers.”
Police Minister Rob Johnson said yesterday that mandatory jail terms for people who assault police officers would be the first Bill debated when Parliament resumed on Tuesday.
The latest assaults started after Carnegie’s Bar door staff alerted police after a fight broke out between staff and three women and three men about midnight.
Police intervened but back-up was soon required as aggression escalated.
An officer tasered a 19-year-old man due to alleged aggressive behaviour and resisting arrest.
Following this, a 46-year-old man, believed to be the teenager’s father, ran at police and jumped on the backs of the officers. He was also tasered by police.
A 21-year-old man was charged with disorderly conduct and two counts of assaulting a public officer, a 19-year-old man was charged with assaulting a public officer, disorderly conduct and obstructing police and a 46-year-old man was charged with obstructing police and assaulting a public officer.
A 42-year-old woman was charged with disorderly conduct and breach of a move-on notice.
The assaults coincided with the release of statistics showing that an average of four police officers are bashed in WA every day.
PERTH
JAYNE RICKARD
"Believe in the best, think your best, study your best, have a goal for your best, never be satisfied with less than your best, try your best, and in the long run things will turn out for the best."
Perth is not a dangerous city.
Try Mexico City or any Central American City for danger that will make your hair stand up on the back of your neck..........and then there's Africa.
At the end of the day, a policeman has been permanently disabled in the line of duty. That the perpetrator got off is a crime against humanity.
I demand a retrial
there has actually been quiet a bit of coverage on that, it just depends what media outlets you chose to read/listen to...
"Believe in the best, think your best, study your best, have a goal for your best, never be satisfied with less than your best, try your best, and in the long run things will turn out for the best."
You are OJ Simpson aren't you?
How about some running rugby from the attack coach?
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