Why was the ARC canned?

[AndyS]

a national comp doesnt work, thats why it failed, a professional team playing rugby league in perth failed and a professional rugby league team in melbourne needs million of dollars propping up every year, a semi professional league in this day and age involving people for a couple of months is never going to work no matter how much you want it to.

Yet somehow, the entirely amateur Australian Rugby Shield survives...

[laura]

The unused players from other NSW/QLD/ACT clubs would also have to be used.

It all depends on what the goal of the comp is - if you're hoping to see rugby in WA then bad luck cause the ARC has been shitcanned. Personally I want a tier between club comps and Super 14 that builds player talent with minimal operating costs. This could well work.

Long term expansion to WA would be great, but for now here's a plan that engages the existing club structures at a minimal price.

30 return flights Sydney to Brisbane = $6000, retail, two weeks in advance. 30 flights to Perth by the same token = $16140. Sure you'd get them further in advance and bulk discounts etc, but you're still looking at triple the bucks to fly west.

Perhaps a WA team could be based in Coffs Harbour, would that keep you happy?

No

Go back to saying stuff like:

You're right, it's all sydney's fault, corners don't come cheap.

Well, that and Melbourne lost most of the money, plus there were first year set up costs that wouldn't have been re-incurred...

But to me the big problem was one of scale. They could have easily scaled back the comp and continued it.

Smaller grounds would have been a good way to cut overheads. If 2000 people are showing up, play at a ground that they'll fill, or play in the local council park and save hire fees.

Cut the staff at each team to be a small scale operation - rather than a full time coach, management, physio etc, have a part time coach and hire the rest of the staff as needed. If you need a physio on game day and Tuesday arvo then get one.

Sell beer, lots of it.

Advertise, local papers, local RSL's etc.

Televise, surely they could do better than paying to have highlights shown on ABC2

That would make me happy

[waratahjesus]

Yet somehow, the entirely amateur Australian Rugby Shield survives...

amateur and professional are two very different beasts, people wanting to play for very little money and just trying to brake even is very different from people trying to make a livelyhood out of the game!

[waratahjesus]

why cant we play int he npc, it solves all these problems and creates a product that ca be sold?

it seems stupid to try to build a comp from scratch when were including teams in melbourne or to a lessor extent perth, and im not perth bashing, its just that if its anywhere like the ARC there is no way any team is going to brake even, let alone turn a profit!

you need a strong local club comp to build interest in a rep side, displacing players from elsewere only works for a while in building local support, especially if you dont win!

[RuckNMaul]

NPC?????

at least you do you avatar justice

[waratahjesus]

Well alot of the original Force supporters who didn't renew their membership because of the inadequate Subi ground making the investment not worth it. Although this isn't a significant money factor it is certainly the weighing up of the cost versus the benefit of watching Super rugby at the substandard Subiaco. Of course the reserve pricing may not bring those supporters back unless the reserve games were played at Members Equity. Non rugby supporters will most likely be the most affected by a cheaper reserve game if it was advertised as a Toyota cup with a sprinkling of 1st player stars. Example. Friday afternoon, finished work, not much to do, so head down with your work buddies to the rugby, have a few drinks, it could bring back alot of the mateship of rugby that you don't get in some of the bigger games.

Plus with a longer season teams will need more money and I don't think that ticket prices to Super matches will do anything but go up. Keep in mind that Bundesliga matches are about 10 euros a ticket, so there is surely to be people who are on 'struggle street' not able to come to games. (It's not the lucky country for everyone)

there isnt enough fans for a second game, im sorry but this is crud! i think you underestimate the factor of the force having an atrocious first season in the drop of memberships, there would have been alot of people excited about having a team who were borderline fans who are only going to turn up to watch a winning side! it happens in every state in the country!

but the notion of a third level of rugby pulling crowds is somewhat laughable, especially in the eastern states where they compete tooth and nail with three other sports for a buck.

the only way it would work would be by playing curtain raisers and then the majority of the revenue would have to come from sponsorship which isnt going to help to make it sustainable!

[waratahjesus]

NPC?????

at least you do you avatar justice

care to back it up with an opinion, or just clutching at straws?

the npc clubs in new zealand have big followings and a competitiong with good sposorship and television deals, it also has a major sponsor that is an airline and is trying to include more games against australian super rugby sides as part of a revamped competition, why shouldnt it be explored!

the national netball comp has just started a trans tasman trophy that has had a fantastic first season playing games on irregular nights and spaced out, why cant a trans tasman rugby camp work?

[BLR]

wj, I'm not expecting such a game to pull huge crowds at all, don't get me wrong, it'll pull very much the same crowds as the ARC did but it would cut down the costs significantly that would be in a national comp while still giving an outlet for the players to develop.

And as for joining the NPC wj, there is a reason they have cut two of their teams for next season and want an expanded Super 14, the NPC is pretty weak atm.

[frontrow]

care to back it up with an opinion, or just clutching at straws?

the npc clubs in new zealand have big followings and a competitiong with good sposorship and television deals, it also has a major sponsor that is an airline and is trying to include more games against australian super rugby sides as part of a revamped competition, why shouldnt it be explored!

the national netball comp has just started a trans tasman trophy that has had a fantastic first season playing games on irregular nights and spaced out, why cant a trans tasman rugby camp work?

Forgive me for my ignorance, but i only came back online today, so totally rusty on forum chat, but are you saying that we should field a side, or even two in an expanded APC comp, and if so, is this the reasoning behind NZru's interest in culling the present comp by two teams, ie; to accomodate new aussie teams?????
That said, and confirmed or denied, what bearing will it have on the Australian rugby scene in that it is not going to benefit too many top class grade players anyway...

It is not the best solution i guess, but i take your point onboard that it would definately offer a new level of skills to topclass club players not quite up to the standards super14 requires, but will the kiwis accept it...

If i am totally off the mark on all counts, sue me...

[waratahjesus]

cut down NPC + excess super 14 teams from australia = better comp with more options and interest than ARC!

if perth could field there own side with players from there own club comp and so forth there would be a greater need and desire for an ARC, that day maybe isn't right now, maybe its four or five years of hard work away!

i would love to see a comp, but its just not viable as a professional or semi-professional entity! does playing in a rep team for six or seven weeks really develop a player, the fleet only got together a few weeks before there first game and pretty much never said hello after there last, you could argue that the club comps of nsw does more to develop and mature these players than the arc did, the arc was more just an opportunity to be scouted!

[frontrow]

I agree with your last statement re scouting, and the fact is that club rugby is where the talent is original assessed and nurtured, as is the case across Aus. I believe a team or two in the APC is a viable solution to give our best club talent a chance to perform at a higher level and perform for the scouts, and it will also provide a broader market for the APC as i am sure a bucketload of Aussies would jump on the supporters bandwagon in a New Zeaeland based competition, it is a friggin awesome idea...However, if this occurs it would , most likely, be a deathknell for an ARC type format as the market would begin to be flooded...

[waratahjesus]

in what form or way can the ARC be financially viable while paying players and the excess of travel, it virtually has to be its own comp held over a longer period with a television contract to attract the type of sponsorship needed to survive long term!

the only way this will happen is with fox involved and they are more likely to do that if the product appears on more tv's and new zealand = alot more tv's, (not in population but in interest!)maybe we could get the rugby channel they have in nz on a prescription basis to help keep revenue up?
waratahs or force v canterbury would create more interest than spirit v fleet would ever do by name recognition alone!

[Darren]

Did the 2006 APC lose money? It wasn't much, but it was something - make it a home and away season, 4 teams only.

[waratahjesus]

4 nz & 4 aus, 14 games, sounds good to me!

[NTT]

stated by western force fans in this thread is that the spirit got a 5 million dollar grant from the ARU and that rugbyWA put in 2 million of there own money, thats seven million utlayed for the running of the Perth Spirit in the ARC, i got those figures from this thread as posted by members of TWF, the same members that attacked the NSWRU getting a grant!

my argument was when someone stated that the spirit made rugbyWA a profit, its complete bullcrap! for the spirit to be financial viable then they would have had to turned over more than 2 million for rugbyWA to make a profit (and please post figures if rugbyWA made more than they outlayed!), then you still have the fact that it has cost the ARU five million! so therefore for the spirit and to be a viable team in the ARC, they would have needed to turn over 7 million dollars to make them brake even!

NTT - 5 million grant, plus 2 million of rugbyWA money = 7 million operating budget!

7 million is alot of money to waste on a team of misplaced nsw & queensland players, they should have just let them play at tweed heads and saved on travel!

this is what happens when people believe the non sensical ramblings of waratahjesus. the spirit didnt have a $7mil operating turnover. thats just a figure waratahjesus assumed after misreading my post. the operating budget was between $2-3mil after sponsorships.

the figures TOCC posted state that rugbywa received $5mil for player payments and the ARC. according to this rugby wa received no development programme money yet still managed to put $2mil of their own cash into the club competition, while turning a profit in both the ARC and super 14 ($900 000+). so if nswru received $11.5mil in ARU grants yet posted a lost and rugby wa received $5mil and posted a profit, who's the more inept administration?
i know you'll shoot holes in my argument but before you do, you said to read this thread. i did this and used the figures posted in this thread to summarise what you wanted me to learn. i would have used the figures you posted but you haven't seemed to back your gerry bashing up with anything except questions about his character because the discussion seems to have hit a nerve with you.
prove me wrong champ .... explain the $11.5mil grant and where it was used or i'll keep assuming nswru is inept. i mean TOCC seems to know more about nswru grants than nsw....

you have got to be kidding right?
do you understand the concept of professional rugby, you realise the so called 'grants' from the ARU are professional rugby funding among other things. By that i mean the ARU takes all the money from Broadcast agreements and then divides it up amongst provinces. They need to be reimbursed for the cost of running a professional rugby side somehow dont they?

Just have a look at RugbyWA annual reports(if you actually could) and you will find a nice little $5million grant in there from the ARU.

The QRU got close to $7.5 million from the ARU in 2007, $450,000 for the runnning of the ARC, $2.5million for community rugby and $4.5million for the cost of running a professional team. The cost of the ARC was minimised in QLD since the Tornadoes could play out of the QRU owned Ballymore Stadium.

NSWRU received $10,900,000 in 2007, $5million is for player wages, $1.5 million for the ARC(it was inclusive in the grant) and $4million for community rugby.

Yes the QRU and NSWRU spend $2.5 and $4 million respectively on there community rugby comps every year, its not hardly suprising, between the two they generate 90% of rugby players in the county. The NSWRU and QRU do not go running to the ARU asking for this money, it is part of the ARU's communtiy rugby development plan.

waratahjesus, your assumption that the perth spirit had an operating budget of $7mil is, as i stated was not the case, an inept use of your common sense. ive quoted the figures posted in this thread above. i'll break it down into to laymans for you.

TOCC posted that rugbywa got a grant of $5mil to help operate the professional team (western force). qld got $4.5 for the reds and nsw got $5mil for the tahs.
the $5mil grant to operate and pay players at the force has nothing to do with operating the spirit.
i stated the fact the club rugby development grant from the aru to rugbywa was $0. i also stated that despite this rugbywa was able to inject $2mil of its own money into wa club rugby, not the spirit.
somehow youve twisted these figures to support some wild tangent you made yourself believe.
as no-ones stated what each union received for funding the ARC its wrong to speculate.