Should the IRB throw minnows back?

[shasta]

These would be the same contributors that I expect support keeping foreigners out of the S14 teams, a bit of double standards don't you think?
I think in this case the SH cannot justify taking the high moral ground, even against those clowns at the IRB while they actively discourage this free market in their own leagues.

Your penchant for stirring the pot on this topic is noted FT.

But you won't change my mind about Australian eligibility rules for the S14. However I can see a case for exemptions for rep players from tier 2 or 3 nations only. The well supported suggestion of having a Pacific Islands S14 team would be good as well but not instead of those exemptions. Perhaps you should read some of the other threads where alternatives to that situation were proposed before you accuse us of being in favor of it being sustained.

[Flamethrower]

Should the IRB throw minnows back?


NO!!

[Darren]

I agree with the view posted above that suggests the success of the "minnows" is probably down in no small part to the fact most actually draw their squad from France, Italy or England and that most if not all contributors in this thread think that is an OK position and should be sustained. These would be the same contributors that I expect support keeping foreigners out of the S14 teams, a bit of double standards don't you think?

I actually agree that the smaller nations add value to a "world comp" but then I live in a country that allows them an opportunity to play in our leagues if they wish to, I think in this case the SH cannot justify taking the high moral ground, even against those clowns at the IRB while they actively discourage this free market in their own leagues.

All that said the IRB are still wrong IMHO.

When you think that all of Ireland with a population of 4 million odd supports 4 teams, where Australia with a population of over 20 million also only supports 4 teams (and some on the east coast of our sea girt nation would say we can only support 3) it's little wonder oirish clubs need to source players from elsewhere.

I think we will have room for a 5th pretty soon and possibly a 6th a bit further down the track. More than that and we'd probably need to change the rules and allow foreign players also. For the meantime, we should develop our own stocks further at this level.

That being said, SH unions as 'Rugby Powerhouses' should be pulling their weight and actively support and nurture the fledgling rugby nations in other ways....

[tragic]

I think there's a valid argument for throwing the minnows out.

Let's start with England

[Darren]

teehee

[Flat-top]

Your penchant for stirring the pot on this topic is noted FT.

.

rumbled!

As I say I do agree that the way forward is to keep these smaller nations involved in the WCup but you have to say their recent success has been down to the free market of NH clubs who are willing to be inclusive, something the SH cannot be accused of. I just think its a bit rich of SH fans calling the injustice of the IRB when they have nothing to lose and are putting nothing into the pot so to speak. Its as if to say we want to keep our leagues for our own people but you lot should really let those poor Georgians and Argentinians play for your clubs otherwise their national side will never be able to compete at the top table, we of course could't possibly let the Tongan's play in S14.

Coach - you can justify most debates with the clever use of statistics, that doesn't make it correct. For example we are talking about a nation such as Tonga who have about 100,000 in total...how hard can it be for a nation the size of Australia to find space for those additional numbers, not hard I would suggest if there is the will...the reality of course is that they will never try as long as the NH clubs are willing to find space in their clubs and pay wages to help these players get first class(?) rugby.

By the way good luck for tommorow, I will be at the NZ/France game in Cardiff but will be cheering on the Wallabies beforehand...I just don't think I can stand four more years of English gloating.

Tragic - lets hope you haven't posted a bit too quick, there will be serious egg on face if the "minnows" knock you out

[James]

As I say I do agree that the way forward is to keep these smaller nations involved in the WCup but you have to say their recent success has been down to the free market of NH clubs who are willing to be inclusive, something the SH cannot be accused of. I just think its a bit rich of SH fans calling the injustice of the IRB when they have nothing to lose and are putting nothing into the pot so to speak. Its as if to say we want to keep our leagues for our own people but you lot should really let those poor Georgians and Argentinians play for your clubs otherwise their national side will never be able to compete at the top table, we of course could't possibly let the Tongan's play in S14.

I don't think thats entirely true for a lot of different reasons. New Zealand and Australia (to a lesser extent) contribute a lot of players to the 'minnows' just in a different way. Some Islanders like Hale T-Pole and Lome Fa'atau play for NZ in the Super 14 and more still play for ANZC sides. Many Islanders living in New Zealand who can't crack the All Blacks or simply choose to end up playing for their homeland and learn the game in New Zealand. Hell many New Zealanders play for Japan simply by living in Japan a few years. I don't know for certain but I understand a lot of Islanders play in the NSW and QL club competitions. Vittori Buatava was in the Force squad and was moving around in the Fiji squad in June. We also have moved to help develop those nations by playing in the PN cup. It's far from putting nothing into the pot.

You can't say the NH helps the minnows because they are compassionate and their inclusiveness is solely down to it being profitable. Because players like the Tuialagi brothers are better than whats on offer in England for example making the game more exciting, making more money. People say Australia has 20 million people and can support more but something people always forget is until recently Rugby Union was really only served by NSW, Queensland and the ACT. Thats closer to 10 million people and then it has soccer, NRL and Australian football to contend with. There just isn't the popularity or the sponsorship dollars to have more teams and a bigger competition like the Guinness Premiership and still pay a worthwhile amount of money. You ask the Tuialagi brothers: Would you like to get paid £50,000 a year and play in England or $50,000 and play in Australia or New Zealand? You can bet your boots they'll be saying 'Tally ho old boy' before tea-time.

Our competition is soon to be too small for our own players little own for from others like Tonga but the French leagues have a hell of a lot more teams and a hell of a lot more money. Toulon can afford to pay half a dozen SH players as much as we pay a whole team of players and they are only in the 2nd division! I'd like to see a bit more done from our end of the world but be reasonable its a simple case that there is a market there.

[Happy]

i love fishing

[James]

i love fishing

Me too. Have you ever caught a 3 pound, black ribbed knobbler?

[shasta]

rumbled!

As I say I do agree that the way forward is to keep these smaller nations involved in the WCup but you have to say their recent success has been down to the free market of NH clubs who are willing to be inclusive, something the SH cannot be accused of.

No I wouldn't have to say that. I have said in another thread that it's part of the reason. The other part has been their involvement in the Pacific Nations Cup. It's allowed them to develop as a squad over the past 4-5 months leading into RWC.

BTW if you wanna do a bit of stirring but still maintain some cred you should not put up the proposal that the NH clubs are recruiting & developing 2nd and 3rd tier nationals out of the goodness of their hearts. That's laughable.

It's just the reality of Pro Rugby and the better money available in Europe.

[JediKnight]

I think there's a valid argument for throwing the minnows out.

Let's start with England

Careful what you wish for.....if England beat Australia tonight then you are, in fact, advocating for Australia to be thrown out.

[GIGS20]

Not comparing apples with apples there Jedi, Australia hasn't lost a match yet this world cup.

[Flat-top]

Shasta, two quick points;

1) I am not suggesting that the free market in the NH has anything to do with "goodness of anyones heart". Clearly it benefits the players who cannot obtain professional contracts in their own country of birth and of course the clubs would not employ them if there was not a benefit to the club, do you really think I am so niave not to realise that? . I do not think however it improves the national game in the NH and that is the "sacrifice" or "contribution" I see the NH making which despite what others are claiming above is not how the SH operates. In the SH the top leagues are essentailly ringfenced for players only available to the respective national squads (in the main of course). That is clearly the choice of the SH and we can all have a view about that, the issue here was that I am reading posts from people that are very quick to judge the IRB on their crap proposal and argue that effectively at all costs the smaller nations must be kept in the WCup but I question how much the SH are doing to encourage this with the current elligibility rules in the S14, I accept there is another viewpoint.

2) It is far too late in my life to start worrying about credibility. My posts are just my opinion, if someone doesn't like it they can easily skip past them.

[chook]

2) It is far too late in my life to start worrying about credibility. My posts are just my opinion, if someone doesn't like it they can easily skip past them.

Good one FT, thats my mantra as well.

[OMS]

I loved watching some of those awesome big packs drive the ball and putting the "big" teams on the back foot. All of the top 8 teams copped a little of it. NZ even had a push over try , put on them. They maybe minnows but they played as hard and fast as they could. Keep them in I say