Shute Shield on an upward arc - Melrose

[mudskipper]

actually Muddy, the ACT side werent exactly innocent when it came to getting kicked out, they dug there own grave, there are just as many administrative problems down in the ACT as there is in sydney

And all unsolvable? I doubt it… although the good outcome was the ACT Vikings went to QLD comp flew up every week and won the Brissy comp, I it was think 3 times... like it so much the Club purchased real-estate on the Gold Coast for members to book for beach holidays…

TOCC... your point is the ACT team did plenty do be apart of a greater Sydney Club comp however the Sydney Clubs either couldn't deal with the wider growth and/or didn't want real competitor joining the comp… just as they did with the ARC…

[TOCC]

And all unsolvable? I doubt it… although the good outcome was the ACT Vikings went to QLD comp flew up every week and won the Brissy comp, I it was think 3 times... like it so much the Club purchased real-estate on the Gold Coast for members to book for beach holidays…

TOCC... your point is the ACT team did plenty do be apart of a greater Sydney Club comp however the Sydney Clubs either couldn't deal with the wider growth and/or didn't want real competitor joining the comp… just as they did with the ARC…

no muddy my point is that i think you will find club administrators for the vikings were equally at fault for getting kicked out of the sydney comp, from what i heard they placed unreasonable demands and were arrogant when it came to the dealings, in saying that both parties were at fault for not acknowledging the bigger picture.

[mudskipper]

Perhaps you heard wrong TOCC.... perhaps you’d heard third or fifth hand gossip…

I put it to you, Its easy for Sydney club rugby administration to blame the new comer / outsider... I've never been part of an agreement that all parties have been equally committed to and have not sort to change it along the way...

I believe it was just cheap work place politics by Sydney rugby… I hold up as an example the new ARC shenanigans… The Viking did very well in the time they had in Sydney...

[TOCC]

Perhaps you heard wrong TOCC.... perhaps you’d heard third or fifth hand gossip…

I put it to you, Its easy for Sydney club rugby administration to blame the new comer / outsider... I've never been part of an agreement that all parties have been equally committed to and have not sort to change it along the way...

I believe it was just cheap work place politics by Sydney rugby… I hold up as an example the new ARC shenanigans… The Viking did very well in the time they had in Sydney...

well i wasnt directly involved in the talks so i cant say 100% and neither can you muddy, but the fact that ive heard similar stories from multiple reliable parties who are in the rugby circles in both canberra and sydney speaks for itself.

One of the sticking points had to do with the players, it was a situation that basically had Brumbies using the Vikings as there B side, this really wasnt the issue, but it did become a issue when Brumby players who played for clubs in Sydney were told they had to ditch there old team and play for the vikings. Not only would it have resulted in a unfairly strong act side it stripped other clubs of there players. A lot of these players who were told to move were juniors of sydney clubs and would have rather remained.

Basically the NSWRU said to the Vikings/Brumbies that the Vikings couldnt force players to swap clubs, Vikings agreed but the situation continued.

Other minor issues were the fact that the Vikings didnt supply teams to the lower grades which was a requirement of the comp, not a overly massive issue but it does have implications when some grades were struggling with the number of teams.

[mudskipper]

So they were too influential... It doesn't surprise me that players continued to play with players they hope to line up with in the Super rugby...

NSWRU Waratahs have used Uni and the Wicks ever since exactly the same way… Furthermore S14 clubs now do deals with Sydney clubs to keep many players together for the same development reasons… the Brumbies also do this...

The truth is the Vikings with Brumbies support are to dominate for any Shute Shield team and are at the next level… bring back an national comp soon please ARU…

[TOCC]

So they were too influential... It doesn't surprise me that players continued to play with players they hope to line up with in the Super rugby...

NSWRU Waratahs have used Uni and the Wicks ever since exactly the same way… Furthermore S14 clubs now do deals with Sydney clubs to keep many players together for the same development reasons… the Brumbies also do this...

The truth is the Vikings with Brumbies support are to dominate for any Shute Shield team and are at the next level… bring back an national comp soon please ARU…

thats not what i said Muddy, the issue of been forced to shift clubs was raised through the clubs from a few players who were told they had to move, some got there way and remained but it wasnt looked favourably upon.

There is a difference between entering a club side and using a club side as the vehicle for your professional side, at the end of the day having canberra in the comp actually weakened several of the teams by taking there pro players and in turn lowered the overall standard of the competition.

Equal distribution of the professional players is more beneficial because it opens the exposure to other players in the comp, it gives the professional players the chance to pass on there experience and knowledge.

It would be exactly the same if the Perth Spirit entered a team in the Shute shield and made all the players join the Spirit, even though many of the players have links to the exsisting clubs in the comp.

[mudskipper]

I understand you point TOCC but the reality sharing player resources doesn't happen between Sydney... a few clubs dominate the player talent pools… East buys West talent…

Furthermore the looking back to the past the Brumbies could only sign so many players. The Waratahs have the best pool and usually first pick.

There in no equity in players stocks in Shute Shield level rugby, there is no spreading of talent throughout the clubs. The guys sign with the best club they can to further they career paths.

I understand you’re putting forward what you’ve heard from collective sources, and I’ve heard it many times before but its largely misinformation spread to hold the Sydney clubs rugby stand. The point is rather disjointed especially when talking about this point in time in Australian Super rugby as the Brumbies were built on players who were rejected by NSWRU Waratahs...

So go figure, it seems to me that they the Sydney clubs and NSWRU want it both ways and were only happy to have the Vikings play if they weren't competitive. The very mind set that the Brumbies received when they started.

I can also understand players staying in Canberra and not paying relocation costs out of their own pockets for the short Sydney club season.

These Sydney clubs aren't professional enough to sign workable player contracts outside of the S14... I can understand the Brumbies wishing to oversee their assets in the off Super rugby season. The Eastern Sydney Teams don't have a mortgage on Australian rugby talent and furthermore its not all for the collective GLORY of UNI, the Beasts and the Galloping Greens... All wonderful clubs….

A national comp is the only way forward, perhaps some of the Sydney clubs could be involved and their reserve grade play in the Shute Shield which might make for a more even comp in Sydney…

Thanks for your points TOCC I think its good that other rugby fans read a little edgy history which is unearthed every now and then...

[Burgs]

Not giving a vote either way on this discussion but would like to say your posts are rather refreshing to read for a change muddy, hope you have set a new standard!

[TOCC]

muddy, i wasnt defending the sydney clubs, i was pointing out that the Vikings were not a completely innocent party in all of this as you would like us to believe. As for it been misinformation, well like i said previously i have heard it from both canberra and sydney sources, when i was living in canberra i got to know some of the people involved.

[mudskipper]

Sydney rugby is a selfish beast,,,, I understand the Vikings crew may have over played their foreseen initiative but they were removed by Sydney club rugby and not by their own hand... They didn’t walk away, they were banished because they showed up the Sydney Clubs. These clubs were just protecting their patch and they did the very same during the ARC and belly ached all the way through the season…

Just watch the Currie Cup or the NZ Cup and see the difference. Both national comps are light years ahead of the Shute Shield.

Sydney club rugby and siloing players is preventing Australian rugby from growing. This is why the force and hopefully the new Melbourne team a can put enough player demand on the heartland areas and remove this power to grow the game.

I understand your point but I don't think it was an unnegotiable position; Sydney Shute Shield clubs just closed the door because they couldn't compete or had the will to for the betterment of Australian rugby...

People often don't say what is really going on TOCC and it happens on both sides...

[TOCC]

I understand Sydney clubs didnt want to suffer at the exspense of a canberra side, the vikings stuffed up by using there connection with the brumbies to persuade players to move, sydney teams shouldnt have been so thoughtless and had canberra culled without trying to solve the issue.

Obviously the Currie Cup or the NZ Cup are light years ahead muddy, they are professional rugby competitions, sydney club rugby is amateur.

Im pretty sure the Sydney clubs did compete, how many times did canberra win the GF when they were in the comp?

I agree with your last comment Muddy, its also relevant to how Canberra dealt with the whole Shute Shield/Tooheys New Cup issue.

At the end of the day, would having Canberra in the Sydney comp really boost the game nationally? probably not, rugby is already popular in Canberra and i dealt that this would have boosted the game much down there, and it definetly didnt boost the game in Sydney.

[mudskipper]

Perhaps there rests the problem once a player comes professional the contracted club views them as an asset to manage... which is OK in my books...

[TOCC]

do you think it would be in the best interest of the brumbies by making all there players play for the one team in Canberra, say for example Gungahlin. They are practicising there combos and learning how to play with each other arent they?

[mudskipper]

I think one of the old Brumbies/Wallabies Hooker Marco Caputo is coaching Gungahlin...