USADA says it will ban Lance Armstrong, strip 7 Tour titles

[Happy]

http://cyclinginvestigation.usada.org/

[Happy]

4 Corners tonight

[Lonzy]

Can someone explain to me why blood loading is considered doping? Fair enough it might give the athlete an edge, but if all athletes were allowed then whats the big deal? its not like its a 'performance enhancing drug'... and would be able to be utilised by all athletes - its their own bodily fluid ...

You would still need to be a considerable athlete to compete in something like the tour de france...

Would it be banned due to the negative effects of it? Such as increasing the viscosity of the blood already in the body? making the blood more likely to clot and cause heart attacks/strokes/pulmonary embolisms?

What about athletes who have primary polycythemia? wouldn't they have an advantage over other athletes anyway? (not that I've been able to find any athletes who suffer the condition).

And what about those athletes who train at altitudes, causing secondary polycythemia? thats a legal form of blood doping, but what if all athletes aren't able to train at altitude?

Also, wouldn't Armstrong had to of had testosternone replacement therapy after being treated for his cancer? that could have caused secondary polycythemia...

Does any one know how they can tell the difference between blood loading and polycythemia? I'm assuming they can, or else they wouldn't be able to ban blood loading right? Maybe some of the blood cells look different after they have been stored outside the body for a period of time...? I know its difficult to freeze cells in general, so there is usually a chemical used to stop the membrane from 'bursting' which allows them to be recovered after being frozen in liquid nitrogen - not sure if blood cells are the same ...

[jono]

I think it's about manipulation? You are changing the conditions of the race by altering your body? You're not competing - for lack of a better phrase - as god intended.

That's my understanding of it in all sports anyway.
Posted via Mobile Device

[sittingbison]

Can someone explain to me why blood loading is considered doping...

There are several reasons Lonzy.

Some people respond better than others, some actually respond negatively. Some are called "super responders", which is what Lance is. I gave this example up thread:

... With blood vector doping like EPO,if you compare a natural 35% hematocrit athlete with a 45% one, put them both on EPO to raise them both to 50%, you can see the first has a clear advantage of a 43% improvement in O2 carrying ability to an 11% improvement...

Armstrong had a natural HcT level of 39%, extremely low for an endurance athlete. Most elite endurance athletes are 45-51% (which is why they are elite endurance athletes).

A level of 50% max was initiated after EPO became prevalent. Exceed that, and you have a two week holiday for "health" reasons. One of the arts of the "doctors" is to raise the HcT to 49% and keep it there. The vampires were only allowed to visit between 7am and 10am, so at 10:05 they would pop in another bag of blood, and ride at about 55%. Pantani hit 60%. After the race, get on a saline drip and bring it back to 49%. This is why the 2009 ShowerGate scandal was important, where Armstrong was allowed to "have a shower" unobsedrved for 20mins while Hog kept the vampire engaged.

Armstrong had a natural VO2max of 72ml/kg/min. LeMond had 92ml/kg/min, Cadel 87ml/kg/min. Yet during the TdF Armstrong rode at 84ml/kg/min.

Then there are the costs and access to certain drugs. The better "doctors" such as Ferrari and Fuentes cost a small fortune for their "services". The drugs are expensive, and the support and paraphernalia to run the program successfully are extensive. So only wealthy riders get the "full" benefit. As to the drugs, it is surmised by Hamilton and others, and rumoured for years, that Armstrong had access to "the good stuff" - believed to be a stolen batch of experimental drug Hemassist - that always put him on a plane above his team mates.

...Then you get the wealthy guys like Lance affording the best doctors like Ferrari, the best drugs and a systematic team program vs the poor bloke from Fuckbuttistan sticking a needle in his arm the morning of a race...

You might have noticed the only people getting busted these days are less wealthy individuals from small teams, like the bloke Steve Houanard from Ag2R the other day.

[Lonzy]

I think it's about manipulation? You are changing the conditions of the race by altering your body? You're not competing - for lack of a better phrase - as god intended.

That's my understanding of it in all sports anyway.
Posted via Mobile Device

But, if you think about it, you are removing your own blood and then replacing it back into your own body at a later stage ... so from that point of view it wouldn't be as serious as say steroids...

Not that I'm trying to condone it - if it's illegal, it's illegal - just getting my head around it :p

---------- Post added at 10:29 ---------- Previous post was at 10:18 ----------

There are several reasons Lonzy.

Some people respond better than others, some actually respond negatively. Some are called "super responders", which is what Lance is. I gave this example up thread:



Armstrong had a natural HcT level of 39%, extremely low for an endurance athlete. Most elite endurance athletes are 45-51% (which is why they are elite endurance athletes).

A level of 50% max was initiated after EPO became prevalent. Exceed that, and you have a two week holiday for "health" reasons. One of the arts of the "doctors" is to raise the HcT to 49% and keep it there. The vampires were only allowed to visit between 7am and 10am, so at 10:05 they would pop in another bag of blood, and ride at about 55%. Pantani hit 60%. After the race, get on a saline drip and bring it back to 49%. This is why the 2009 ShowerGate scandal was important, where Armstrong was allowed to "have a shower" unobsedrved for 20mins while Hog kept the vampire engaged.

Armstrong had a natural VO2max of 72ml/kg/min. LeMond had 92ml/kg/min, Cadel 87ml/kg/min. Yet during the TdF Armstrong rode at 84ml/kg/min.

Then there are the costs and access to certain drugs. The better "doctors" such as Ferrari and Fuentes cost a small fortune for their "services". The drugs are expensive, and the support and paraphernalia to run the program successfully are extensive. So only wealthy riders get the "full" benefit. As to the drugs, it is surmised by Hamilton and others, and rumoured for years, that Armstrong had access to "the good stuff" - believed to be a stolen batch of experimental drug Hemassist - that always put him on a plane above his team mates.

You might have noticed the only people getting busted these days are less wealthy individuals from small teams, like the bloke Steve Houanard from Ag2R the other day.

But simple blood loading wouldn't be that expensive would it? you just remove the blood and then reintroduce it at a later date. No need for EPO...

[sittingbison]

...But simple blood loading wouldn't be that expensive would it? you just remove the blood and then reintroduce it at a later date. No need for EPO...

USA track cycling did that at LA games (Los Angeles, not Lance Armstrong) Olympics 1984 and kicked butt.

However, blood doping (transfusions, blood bags etc) requires proper medical supervision. The blood does not last long, requires being kept at correct temperatures, there is the hygiene aspect. For instance wealthy riders employed Fuentes "Siberia" freezer technique. This length of storage etc has implications because the body needs time to recharge the depleted blood volume. Remember Tyler recounts his bad (dead) blood bag episode. And even using Fuentes, the bags got mixed up so they transfused other riders blood. Terribly dangerous.

I believe the general public does not watch or support pro sport for the freak show aspect, they want a genuine competition that they can relate to. They can only relate to sport through believable performance, probably comparable to their own in amateur.

[jono]

But, if you think about it, you are removing your own blood and then replacing it back into your own body at a later stage ... so from that point of view it wouldn't be as serious as say steroids...

Not that I'm trying to condone it - if it's illegal, it's illegal - just getting my head around it :p[COLOR="Silver"


---------- Post added at 10:29 ---------- Previous post was at 10:18 ----------

[/COLOR]

But simple blood loading wouldn't be that expensive would it? you just remove the blood and then reintroduce it at a later date. No need for EPO...

IMO it's still getting an advantage from a means other than training. To me that defines cheating.

Blood also needs to be stored right. And there is the health risks from needles and infections from wounds.
The doctors tailor a package to combine every method of performance enhancing substances for each individual. Hence why they can charge so much. They specialised in each athlete on their team.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Happy]

maybe there should be a side event where "anything goes" for some sports

[brokendown gunfighter]

we could call it the "crown land" clause

[Happy]

Still think he's clean?

[LarryNJ]

maybe there should be a side event where "anything goes" for some sports

We've enjoyed many entertainers who were on drugs and we didn't care. John Belushi made us laugh and we didn't care if he was high on drugs, it was funny. Many in the music industry perform high and we like their music. Hell even coach designed this website under the influence of alcohol and we don't care.

[sittingbison]

So does anybody care if Bolt is juiced to the gills? And every single male AND female in the 100m final? What about Federer? Mo Farrah? Chris Hoy?

After all, it's entertainment - like John Belushi...and comedy as well in a sick kind of way.
Posted via Mobile Device

---------- Post added at 00:09 ---------- Previous post was Yesterday at 23:54 ----------

Remembering the Four Corners show was completed before the Reasoned Decision came out, is there a single person who still thinks Armstrong isn't a lying cheating bullying fraudulent wanker?

Great job aunty. BTW the extra bits not included on Telly but on the website are worth a look. Especially Phil Anderson fixing the 1993 triple crown by bribing Team Coors to allow LA to win and pocket $1m prize money.

And Betsy is HAWT!! A fine red wine, better with age.

Who would describe her as a fat obese ugly jealous crazed bitch like Lance has?
Posted via Mobile Device

[zed]

IMO it's still getting an advantage from a means other than training. To me that defines cheating.

[/i][/size]

Exactly.

[Happy]

If you’re a cycling fan living in Australia you probably would have tuned into ABC’s Four Corners last night. I didn’t expect to see or hear anything new and I assumed it was going to be paired down so than any layperson could understand. It was anything but that…
The ratings came in at 1.03 million people who watched Four Corners last evening (5th for the night). To put that into perspective, SBS peaked with it’s TdF coverage this year with Stage 11 attracting an average national audience of 502,000 with a 20.8% market share. Four Corners had a 11.9% audience share last week, and 21.3% this week by screening its “The World According To Lance“. This doesn’t include online views (which are not geo-blocked for all you international guests). The ratings speak for themselves; Everyone loves a scandal.
Four Corners did a remarkable job at putting the whole story together and assembling the right experts and witnesses. We’ve read most of the allegations, reports, and testimonies throughout various news articles and books, but it was nice to see fresh vision of these interviews along with the body language and disposition behind many of the characters in this soap opera. Betsy Andreu, Michael Ashenden, Emma O’Reilly, Joerg Jaksche, Dick Pound, were all brilliant.
The first unexpected bombshell that Four Corners dropped was Phil Liggett’s acknowledgement of Lance Armstrong’s guilt and the evidence behind it (see his interview at the 21min mark). It’s a dramatic change of tune from his delusional radio interview in August where he claimed that bribery of witnesses took place. Phil told Four Corners (at 21 minutes), “Look, I admit. I’ve been very proud to commentate on Armstrong all these years because I’ve seen a man and I’ve seen how he’s battled the elements and I see how he’s come forward. I’m very sad. What do I think? Everybody else did it, so I find it very difficult to not to think that Lance did it.”
The interviews with WADA’s ex-president Dick Pound were also alarming. Pound recalled a conversation with Hein Verbruggen, “I said, ‘Hein, you guys have a huge problem in your sport. He said, ‘what do you mean’. The doping. ‘Well, that’s the fault of the spectators.’ I beg your pardon? Well yes, if they were happy with the tdf at 25km/hr that’s fine, but if they want it at 41, 42km/hr, the riders have to prepare.”
Of course this is inexcusable of Verbruggen, but there is an underlying truth to it. We demand these superhuman displays of strength and “courage”, when in fact we were bored silly with the lack of attacks and panache in this year’s Tour de France. I’m not saying that I’m convinced that the 2012 TdF was 100% clean, but it certainly lacked the drama we saw in the 90′s. We complained about it and there were whispers of, “…the Tour was better with doping.”
The most amusing part of the show was watching Phil Anderson squirm when blindsided with the $1M Coors Classic prize money question and the chop that took place. Awww, C’mon Phil! We all know how it works. Nothing to be ashamed of. I had a chop going on in Amy’s Gran Fondo for God’s sake!
After everything that’s being revealed at the moment, I find a many things difficult to comprehend:
1. The UCI suspicion index that was leaked in 2011 had Lance Armstrong rated as a 4 (out of 10). Apparently the UCI did not see any reason to scrutinise him.
2. That ASADA did their due diligence on Matt White after being named by Floyd Landis in 2010 and were instructed to investigate. After that, Matt White gets fired for sending Trent Lowe to USPS’s notorious drug doctor and he still gets a job with CA. Why were regular cyclists shaking their heads at this but nothing done by ASADA? Read Michael Ashenden’s scathing article on SHM today.
3. Within the past few weeks Vinokourov has been given the role of GM of Astana, Ekimov now the GM of Katusha, Andersen takes Bruyneel’s place at RadioShack. How much more messed up can things get? Aren’t things supposed to be getting better, not worse?
4. How anyone can still put faith into believing that Lance Armstrong has done more good than harm for cancer sufferers and cycling. From where I sit, all I see is that Lance has used Livestrong as a weapon to attack people with whenever he’s questioned. He has now brought professional cycling to it’s knees and continues to hide behind his cancer work. Whatever positive sentiments I had about Lance’s charity work in the past, I reneg on every word of it. It was only used to conceal the truth.

“It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled” — Mark Twain