JOONDALUP 1STS TO PLAY 2ND GRADE NEXT YEAR?

[RugbyRef]

What about if it worked more like the FA cup than RM states, i.e. tiered entry? Where the lower division teams play against each other in a prelim round, those that get through it then play the prem teams, and it carries on as a knock out?

So The Champ & lower teams:

Arks
Bunbury
Curtin
Joondalup
Kwinana
Mandurah
Southern Lions
Swan Suburbs

The lowest positioned/graded 4 teams from the season before play in first round.

2 Teams go through to play the next round where they play the remaining 4 non premier teams.

The winners go through to a third round against the Prem Teams. (Qtr Final)

Winners again play in Semi, then one Final.

All based on knockout, and as we know from many competitions that employ knock outs, in one game sometimes upsets are possible.

Would need 5 nights to play it. Possible?

[BillyGOAT]

Mr Goat,

Understand your sentiment however the Premier 1st Grade teams are larger, stronger, fitter, faster and more skilled than a District team will ever be. Many of the players have played professional, semi-professional and representative rugby. Go and watch some Premier rugby next weekend and I think you'll agree.

In UK the lower Premier team club is automatically relegated and the highest 2nd division club is promoted at the end of the season. How would that work here?

RM, no doubt what you say is true. im not saying automatic promotion/relegation - this wouldnt work in WA. if the winner of the champ played the last placed prem in a one off match, winner goes to prem, loser goes to champ. this means that if the last placed prem team won they would still be in prems (in turn the better team is playing the highest level of rugby)

this is just an idea that may warrant some thought as it will promote the lower teams in prem to get their shit together (im sure no prem team want to be in a dog fight for survival at the end of the season) and gives an incentive to champ teams. how much worse can a champ team be than pld 7 lost 7?

[Political BS]

Before we start remodelling the Cup to the FA Cup version perhaps take a moment to understand what RWA proposed for 2013 in the middle of last year which as I understand was agreed to by all clubs...... and why it failed.
The Cup would have comprised 16 teams, top 6 Champ Clubs all 10 Prem clubs.
The winners of round one advanced into the Cup and the losers went into a plate ie two pools of 8. That is 8 winners and 8 losers who would then play knock out rounds to get to the final and win the Cup or the plate. Max 4 games played last Wednesday of Mar Apr May Jun. Very much along the lines of a sevens style tournament. Every Champ club would play one game v a Prem Club and possibly two.
RWA also proposed that games would be awarded Comp points. Prems would get 5 bonus points in 2nd grade for taking part for the first two games played win or lose and the Champs 5 points in the Champ first grade.
Two Prem clubs then did their nut and backflipped on the previous agreement claimed they had not been consulted etc... All too hard... Prem Clubs could'nt possibly ask their volunteers to cope with any additional work from this outrageous concept.... How dare RWA bribe clubs by offering points etc... Go back and read the hullabaloo on this site. My opinion or at least IMHO people were more keen to kick the sh$t out of RWA than giving the concept a chance to work which was a bit unfortunate really.

[zed]

Thanks Zed,
I think we are not too far apart on this in our opinions. The Challenge system went in because the Districts Clubs wanted an opportunity to challenge. (I admit to being at the RWA meeting with clubs where it was discussed and I opposed the proposals for a relegation challenge.) They also requested that it was played after the Grand Finals by which time the Prem Club had been out of action for four weeks.
RWA came up with a system of testing the relative strengths of the Clubs involved. You now say it was unfair cause Wanneroo had a team and a bunch of Golden Oldies. That was what you wanted to replace a Premier Club with?? The test of relative Club strengths was about ensuring the challenging Club was stronger than the Prem Club being relegated. Lets not forget that Wanneroo was in the District Comp because the Club fell over a few years previously which gave Rocky their opportunity in Prems. Who knew what the future held for Wanneroo or ARKS or indeed for Rocky and Leeming/Southern Lions.

Good points.

If Wanneroo and Leeming/Southern Lions had been playing in a 3 grade Championship back then with a Cup comp against Prem opposition they would have been much better prepared for the relegation challenge and maybe even stood a chance.
Presently there is no point playing Champ 1s against Prem 1sts because of the enormous gap in standard. In three years from now that possibly would change to a situation in which the Cup Comp gets played between Prem 1s and Champ 1s because of improving standards in the Champ teams. Then you have a viable basis for a conversation about promotion and relegation.
At the moment its all just so much more hot air because the gap in standard ie quality of talent and numbers of players, is not so much a gap as it is something of Grand Canyon proportions.

Yes I agree with most of that. I think for a club like Joondalup or Arks to grow and develop and play a higher level a promotion system is a viable option, but it should be a case where they are promoted gradually. i.e next year, winner of the 1st grade Champs moves into 3rd grade, win that, they move in 2nd grade etc etc

[Hansie]

Great ideas - BUT - at the end of the day what are we wanting Community Rugby in WA to achieve?

It's great that this debate centers around Championship Club aspirations to PremirClub status etc etc.

My way of thinking is we need to agree what is the ultimate goal for our players, coaches and refs. My view - HAVE FUN - whether that means striving for national selection or simply turning up for a run with your mates.

No Nation is bigger than the game ( Just ask the Boks what happened in the late 70's and 80's) No professional team is bigger than the national team, No club team bigger than the professional team and so on - right down to the individual.

So... if we just want to focus on our comp and develope a pathway...we need to build our comp. structure into a Pyramid.

I think a culling of Premirgrade clubs and growth of community clubs has some merit, but how do we accommodate "for the good of the game" a skilled junior in the South West, or Kalgoorlie? Where do we recommend a highly talented migrant go and play? How do we grow the fun factor, skill level across the board from juniors to Championship to Seniors.

Should we split the comp into conferences? Should we shorten the season to allow for 7 a-side development? Where do we find more volunteers?

Which other team game has the ethics, attributes and potential in WA? Tell Mum's and Dad's , we can accommodate a billy bunter, a dwarf, a beanpole and gazelle all in the same team. We don't have an issue with racism, our drugs policy is clear, unambiguous and enforced, respect for Referees is sacrosanct, our spectators don't have to be separated by barbed wire and we contribute hugely as a sport to the hospitality and tourism industry than any other.

I have to ask myself - Why are struggling to grow the game???

[DinkyDi]

My way of thinking is we need to agree what is the ultimate goal for our players, coaches and refs. My view - HAVE FUN - whether that means striving for national selection or simply turning up for a run with your mates.

Hansie

Good comments and ideas - FUN seems to be slipping away from the game especially with the lure of professional contracts to the talented youngsters. most of the young lads are happy to have a run with their mates, as long as they are competitive and don't get hammered each week. In addition, a chunk want to play at the highest level they can attain so they leave their junior clubs and have a crack at Prems. Now - there are only so many 1st XV spots each week already making it tough to break in. Are kids today willing to wait and work for it... I am afraid that in MHO most are not - the generation of instant gratification does not translate to hard work and proving yourself in the majority of cases. Disillusionment sets in and off they trot lost to the game for a long time. There are those that will work hard and keep plugging away and they are the ones who do make it and have the heart to go further.

There are a significant amount of exceptions to this as can be seen by the youngsters playing for the Championship teams but I see so many stars of U16-U18 fail to develop and fight for a spot or put the real effort in if they do get an instant crack, be it prems or academy.

Just the ramblings of an old rugby head but I do feel that coaches of junior teams need to be very careful at managing expectations and not pumping kids up too quickly. The first rejection if often the last as they run away shattered at the fact that they MAY not be as Uber as everyone from their junior team told them they are.

[RumourMonger]

Probably the most sensible and sincere words I've ever heard from you Hansie. No soap box required and I know you were speaking from the heart as a good rugby man.

You're hitting all the nails with your questions.

Now the answers on how to grow the game in WA (and I admit some are out of RWA's control):

The context:

1) Wallabies need to win the majority of the time.

2) Wallabies need to visit Perth more often and be accessible when they do.

3) Force need to win more than they lose and particularly home games.

4) Force players and coaches need to genuinely embrace Perth and look to engage with community rugby. The effect of a Force player spending just 5 minutes with Mums, Dads and their kids is long lasting but doesn't happen any where near enough.

Force players appear to treat Perth as a stepping stone and their minds are always thinking where to next. Recruitment of more WA boys would help in this regard. Having family and friends here is the best retention strategy and I think RWA are already implementing this.

5) Improved Public Awareness - positive media coverage must be significantly ramped up about Rugby (inc differentiating with League which the local media love to muddy the waters with). Rugby must get to a point where everyone in the community knows where the local rugby clubs are. Wouldn't it be great if in the TV news each Saturday evening there was 20 seconds of local Premier rugby scores and Premiership table shown - this would be exposure well worth paying for!

RWA and Club Actions:

1) A logical and sustainable growth strategy to be implemented that incorporates a competition structure for now and into the future. This may include reducing Premier Clubs to a lesser number than 10 and also include a tiered structure that everyone understood / accepted (eg English soccer tiers) and provide incentives for all involved to strive for improvement (current system promotes more of the same each year and does not provide incentives to improve for many of the participants). Eg each club must know its place and role in the structure and what it needs to do to get to the next level - guidelines need to be black and white. Promotion / relegation needs to be part of it or a Senior Club / Junior (Feeder) Club arrangement and it may involve the establishment of new clubs that will need support from their local Senior Club..

2) More representative teams / tours need to be available for players from teenage through to seniors (7's and 15's).

3) Academy Programme or Intensive Coaching needs to be more readily accessible for players in the outer suburbs.

4) Force players need to be distributed relatively evenly amongst the clubs and Force players actively seeking to participate.

5) More Development Officers are required so that a more focussed approach to development in schools, suburbs and regions can be undertaken.

6) Stronger and more rigid links between schools and clubs need to be established and maintained.

7) Reinforcement of the values of Rugby Union in every thing we do and promote about the game.

8) Better communication and co-operation between the clubs within each region

9) Resolve the PSA / Club Rugby situation and make school rugby more prestigious.

10) Each club to promote rugby more visibly within their local area. Half the clubs are tucked away and you wouldn't know they were there.

11) A strategy put in place to improve numbers of volunteers

12) Better quality coaching at all levels of rugby in WA (I don't just mean technical aspects; attitudes are just as important)

I could go on... and I understand that some of the above requires a more affluent Rugby WA however we need to know the direction we want to head in.

Hansie, give these thoughts to your mates on the Board and see what they say. Maybe PBS can action it?

Cheers,

RM

[RumourMonger]

The first rejection if often the last as they run away shattered at the fact that they MAY not be as Uber as everyone from their junior team told them they are.

Have seen dozens of good young players over the years give up the game (led by their stroppy and selfish parents I might add) because of not making the State team that particular year or the parents spitting the dummy because "young Johnny" wasn't in the run on side (the fact that he wasn't at training because it was his sisters birthday and the parents wouldn't let him train is apparently irrelevant - I've heard them all!).

Totally agree with Dinky's comments although I still think his eyes are too close together.

[Yeahbaby7]

Now this is the sort of rugby discussions that are enjoyable to read, thank you to those contributors. In addition to RM & Dinky’s is the need for a very strong lead from the ARU in assisting each state financially so they can then develop their relative competitions. From past discussions it been well noted that RWA have had funding cut massively. For the changes to be effected we need strong and genuine support from the ARU with a clear focus on development of rugby in the West.

The blog by Marshall (love him or loath him) was so true when he refers to academy boys. having talented players brought in at a young age inflates their ego's, removes them from a team mentality and also gives them an individualistic attitude. You could argue the point that James O'Connor and those similar talents suffer from this mindset and are in need of an ego adjustment. When the camaraderie of club football is bypassed the players miss out on the most important thing to take from the game. The sense of belonging, the attachment to "Your" club. Lets face it that after we hang up the boots all we have are memories and our club!

[Hansie]

Dinks - Having personally seen boys lost to the game because Mum 'n Dad believed some myopic coach about little johnny's skillset and then from that time on, destroyed his career or allowed him to find a way out. Other boys I have been intimately involved with have gone to greater things, because if anything we teamed up with parents, told them how hard it was to crack the big time and then challenged them to prove us wrong. Funny that...but too many coaches and teams blow smoke up a kids bottom so that they keep the kid playing in their team and they fear the kid moving on. This time we live in of "Positive Re-inforcement" is also a crock of doo doo - how is a kid ever going to learn how to handle rejection if every thing he does is praised as wonderful???

Now RM - my how you have turned - it is a pleasure

May I address your RWA and Club actions:

1. Being addressed.
2. Totally agree - biggest issue is getting sponsorship.
3.RWA have brought in a great innovation "How fit is your team" link on the web page. It is a great initiative to firstly measure where our premiergrade teams stack up relative to Professional. Cottesloe as a team are 92% of the fitness of our Force. Having specialist training down at Rocky or up at North Coast is important, a work in progress and requiring some funds.
4.Done - watch this space.
5. Agreed, and since I estimate some $100,000 is lost each season across the board by clubs unable or unwilling to collect subs, imagine if this was channelled into the comp, we could get 2 development officers.
6. and 7 . desirable, but will need other fundamentals in place.
8. My personal ambition over the next few years. If Clubs remain as fractious as they currently are - we stay the same. Keep the intense rivalry and competition on the field, but outside that arena, have officers of all clubs combine together to develope the game. Imagine if Prez of Neddies could pick up the phone to the Prez of Roodogs and say " Mate - got a player here who wants to play for us - has he paid his subs, do you have any issues with him?" Or coach of Kalla calls up coach of Arks and says " Mate heard your 10 is pretty handy, young and ambitious, wanna let him have a go with us in premiers?"
9. Having coached in PSA for years - don't hold your breath.
10. agreed
11. Interesting you raise this - I think if we got onto ABC or did something with other volunteer co-ops we could grow this. RWA are keen to help maybe offer a family bronze pass to a retiree in return fro said retiree managing a team, setting up grounds or whatever for the local rugby club. The Club also gives a free feed to said retiree or volunteer on Thursday nights and Saturday home games. Huge scope here as volunteers are needed.
12. agreed.

[Political BS]

Dear Hansie and RM,
Thanks for those last couple of posts.
We are way past a discussion about Joondalup which is where all this started.
Suggest it is time for a new thread in order to attract more comment.
Also Thanks Zed, Dinky Di and BG and RR
I much prefer a reasonable conversation than battling through the negatives.....

[fulvio sammut]

Are we in San Francisco?

Feel the lurrrve.

[DinkyDi]

Totally agree with Dinky's comments although I still think his eyes are too close together.

Trying eye yoga but it does not seen to be working - Botox is next

[Ecky]

As this discussion has gone way off the original topic, may I add a bit to it?

I heard tell that a Championship 1sts player recently (ie this very month) tried his hand at a nearby Prem club for one fixture. It was unclear whether he played in that team's 1st grade.

To add to the mix, I heard he was suspended for a week at his usual club, but still wanted to play rugby, so assumed a different moniker to play at the other club.

On one level it would be interesting to see how he fared at a Prem club. On the more reasonable level, it will be interesting to see what happens if (or when) RugbyWA find out about these shenanigans.

If true, of course.

[RumourMonger]

Ecky, Rugby WA doesn't find out about them because people like you keep speaking in riddles.

Name the guy and the club; get it out son. Name and shame.

I'm sure a quiet telephone call to the Competition manager would be appropriate. Are you man enough to do this?

Don't be a spectator Ecky, be proactive and help flush these guys and clubs out.


PS Any truth to the rumour that you were involved in a particularly unsavoury incident at Midland last week? What's the guts?