Round 14 - Some big games here

[RugbyRef]

This is your opinion.

I have not seen the game, or spoken to the referee, but I know how we work as a group.

We try to be as consistent as possible, and we work hard to do it. Just like everyone else we have good & bad days, shit happens. If a referee has a bad game they may get appointed to a lower grade fixture for the following week, the same way a player may be dropped to a lower team, but it has to be seen as a bad game by us &/or RugbyWA, not just by supporters who may or may not be knowledgeable in how we have been asked to referee by the ARU & RugbyWA.

All Premier Grade referees complete reports on their game which are then commented on by the referee coach, these reports highlight areas of the game that went well or could be improved and point to specific times on the DVD to give examples.

We do all this, as well as fitness training and preparation for our next game, in our spare time outside of work & around our family commitments.

It takes a lot more effort than just turning up to train for 2 hours twice a week, and unlike most premier grade players we are not paid, we are volunteers giving up our free time to try and be the best referees we can be. Coops obviously being an exception as he works for RugbyWA.

We also do not have the facilities & opportunities that RugbyWA have given to the clubs to try and close the gap between super rugby & Perth Prem Grade. We're told that we will get this opportunity, but as we're 4 weeks from the end of the main season, I doubt it will happen this year.

It's easy to sit behind a computer and type criticism, but very few of you are willing to put your hand up and become a ref, or even become a referee coach, to help improve the level of refereeing that you state is not good enough. The constant complaining doesn't help a referee improve, what is needed is an understanding of what the referee should have been doing, why they were not doing it, and how they can change it. With specific points in the DVD so the referee can see what the issue is.
And before you do it, no that does not mean analyzing every decision a referee made on a public forum. If you are important enough to get a copy of the DVD, then I am sure you can send comments to RugbyWA who will pass them on to the refs association to consider. Polite & accurate comments are always welcome.

I tell the coaches at the end of most games that they have my email address and if they want to chat about any specific issues after they've reviewed the DVD, then I am happy to do so. I am quite content to say yes I made a mistake if I did, or explain what my thinking was behind a certain call, and listen to the coaches view of what they were trying to do. To me this helps both of us. To date no coach has contacted me.

We were supposed to have a mid season meeting between the Premier Grade referees & coaches to look at how things were going and iron out any issues, but it was cancelled due to a lack of interest from the coaches.

We are trying to do everything to ensure we have the best referees at every premiership game, perhaps a bit of team work as a Rugby Union could help achieve better results.

What more can we actually do?

[bunter]

Rugbyref:

Yep, sorry but I will always defend my right to have an opinion. It also seems to be similar to other poster's opinions.

Forget the blanket defense and have a look at the DVD of the game.

"shit happens" is pretty lame coming from someone who appears to have some input into the current situation.

I think you are undervaluing the coaches, managers, players, administrators and supporters of Clubs if you believe referees are the only ones putting it in as a volunteer.

" unlike most Premier players, we are not paid" ------- Bullshit.
There certainly would be some players in Premier Grade teams that would be getting paid, by select Clubs.
There are many Clubs who continue to struggle to retain players because they just plain can't afford to pay them, so to suggest "most" get paid is way off the mark.

Your reference to "facilities and opportunities" afforded to Clubs by RWA that referees miss out on, needs to be clarified.
Yes, I agree that more needs to be done by RWA to assist the Ref's Association in raising the standard here in the West.

"Easy to sit behind a computer and type criticism" and " few are willing to put their hand up".
For Christ's sake, stop rolling out this dated defense again.

Many who contribute on this site have a vested interest in the sport, and many have put countless hours of work into their chosen area of the game. Many still are.
Personally, I have put 30 years of my volunteer time into the sport in WA alone, including playing, coaching, managing, administration, involvement at RWA and working for the ARU.
That certainly does not make me any more qualified to raise issues, than any of the other posters.
I've done my bit Rugbyref, because I have now pulled back a bit, I'm afraid that won't stop me having an opinion.

I have always been supportive of our referees and will remain so, but honestly, there is something not right with the current situation, and it needs to be dealt with by you guys. Sure it would be nice for others to come up with solutions for your issues, but that responsibility ultimately lies with you guys, and RugbyWA.

Have a nice day.

[RumourMonger]

Don't become too defensive Rugbyref.

I think the underlying point here is its the same individual referees that are inconsistent with the majority of referees who are relatively consistent.

The inconsistency of these few referees is causing mayhem and frustration in 1st grade in particular. The Neddies / Rocky ref is one of those in this category. It is not a one-off, there is a pattern here over a couple of seasons.

[RugbyRef]

I have no issue with people having an opinion, but it takes more than just complaining to change. It needs education & training (Of all, not just one party).

I apologise about my comment regarding most players being paid, you are correct in that there are an army of volunteers that help us and clubs run as well as we can.

RumourMonger, if this really is believed by the club coaches, why do they not feed that info back into RugbyWA? Last time I was at Rocky they lost but were all very courtious and had a beer with me.

RugbyWA has a member on the Coaching & Appointments Board in the refs association (the group who say what ref is the best and then appoint them), so the conduit for feedback is there.

The point about the training is that RugbyWA have actively encouraged clubs to train more in order to be fitter & stronger, hence increase the game. Apart from the scholarship guys we have no opportunity to train together (we live all over the metro area), and have not been measured against the clubs on our S&C. Obviously most players will be stronger, but it is expected that all Premier Referees will be as fit as the players on average.

What I'm looking for is for Rugby in WA to come together as a group and sort these apparent issues out for the good of the game. That's all Prem Refs, Ref Coaches, Coaches, Captains, Presidents and RugbyWA. All the people that have the ability to actively improve rugby in the region.

I don't believe this has currently happened, despite attempts by RugbyWA to arrange it.
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[RumourMonger]

RumourMonger, if this really is believed by the club coaches, why do they not feed that info back into RugbyWA? Last time I was at Rocky they lost but were all very courtious and had a beer with me.

Rugbyref, agree with your points, however you are in the "Good Refs" basket. The small number of referees that are in out of their depth are the ones perceived to be "inconsistent" and erratic and causing teams to lose patience and games, ie they are contributing to these situations like Saturday on a regular basis. Its not a one off and that seems to be a common view of contributors to this thread.

These referees need to be re-trained before refereeing up the grades as the next few weeks are vital for a number of teams trying to qualify for finals and they deserve consistent refereeing. Teams cannot afford for refs to "learn from their mistakes" at this stage of the season. Each game counts.

I think you'll find that clubs do provide feedback but the defensive wall goes up quickly.

[RugbyRef]

Yep, This is certainly the part of the season where we need to be on top of our game.

No one wants a mistake to cost a game, especially here.

I'm disappointed if a defensive wall does go up, I am quite involved in the association and have not heard this feedback yet. After all, we are not infallible and if coaches are using the correct channels to provide feedback then it should be considered with an open mind. That's what it's for.

See what this weeks appointments bring.
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[Hansie]

I have really enjoyed the debate on this subject over the past few threads, mature and constructive.

If I had to put my 1 penny's worth in, I would say this.

Refs are human, they make mistakes and we have laws and not rules so they are subject to interpretation. As many have said on this subject above all that is needed is consistency in the game. Part of any Premiergrade coach's preparation is getting his players to cater for the ref. But if the ref changes his interpretation it will lead to chaos. If one time he blows a tackler for not releasing when ball carrier is held up but knees have touched the ground, then maintain that consistency.

From Saturday's game, my criticism of the ref is for not sorting out the sledging early. Both Neddies and Rocky have experienced sledgers and we all know it is a preprequisite to being a number 9 anyway....BUT if a sledge hits it's mark - then the ref does need to step in before it gets repeated. He's there on the field, he hears all the chatter, sees the reaction and therefore should stop the game - give the boys a breather while he tells the captains to ask for restraint or he'll put a few in the bin.

Coaches should wear the headsets and if he has a hot head in his team ( like we all have) make a call to the props. Next set piece a prop has cramp, ref blows time off, physio runs on with water and tells captain his coach is worried and if discipline is lost, he'll drag the player.

The really sad thing about Saturday is that for the first 50 minutes we had a cracker of a game, scores seesawed but then it all went pearshaped.

But, y'know what...even with 12 players left on the paddock, that Rocky premiergrade team scrapped and fought to a standstill. There's spirit in that group. So many other teams would have taken the easy route and stopped competing

[Hohepa]

RugbyRef - Please watch the DVD from this match - I am in agreement with Insider and Bunter re their opinions of what occurred.
With the impending changes looming for the format of how the competition is structured - volunteers and players have been in overdrive trying to get wins under their belts - there is a lot of pressure to succeed - a referee performance such as this makes a mockery of all that work done by those at club level.

Club administrators, players and supporters are accountable for their actions so referees should be too.

Perhaps payment for the referee of the 1st grade premier match needs to be considered - then they would be a paid employee therefore accountable for their actions.

[RugbyRef]

Hohepa,

I won't review the DVD, not because I don't want to (it sounds interesting) but because the Referee is one of my colleagues, we are both Premier Grade referees and it would be wrong of me to cast opinion on another referees performance, either publicly or privately, without being invited to do so by them. It would be akin to a person at your work who is the same level as you commenting on work you have done to others without being invited to do so. It's not very professional.

I would assume that feed back has got to RugbyWA and the Senior Referee coaches, and that the referee coach, and possibly other members of the coaching and appointments board have reviewed the DVD. They would have shared their opinions with each other and with the referee, and that is the way it should be, just like your performance appraisals at work, confidential between you and your manager. Same way no coach reveals what he says to his team after a game about their performance.

Trust me when I say we are held accountable and do get bollockings from the higher ups when we make clangers that should have been avoidable.

As for being paid to referee, I like that idea! Though at most grounds I'd settle for a dedicated parking space! lol. (Rocky consider yourself the exception here, never had a problem finding a parking space at Lark Hill).

[Ecky]

I have watched the 2nd half of the Rocky/Nedlands game DVD, and ....

Is there a reason you didn't watch the 1st half?

Interested in your thoughts on the 1st half in comparison with the 2nd.

I have spoken to an unbiased spectator who was at the game and their perspective is way different to yours and perhaps more in line with Hansie's. It's interesting how the perspectives shift according to the allegiances of the spectator.

[fulvio sammut]

It's interesting how the perspectives shift according to the allegiances of the spectator.

Including the perspective of your "unbiased spectator" no doubt Ecky.

[Alison]

Kala v Wan was 3 reds and 2 yellows, won't comment on reds as disciplinary will deal with that apart from saying that all Phoenix was not 3rd man in, two Kala reds were. 2 yellows were both to Kala, one to 7 for pulling maul down close to goal line, and one to kala player for shoulder charging a player just after the brawl.

No Wanneroo players were yellow carded.

It was a shame that the brawl disrupted what was a close game, Wanneroo's two force players were very effective in keeping them in the game, it was 11-13 with 10 mins to go but everytime Wanneroo got the ball they seemed to kick away their posession instead of trying to use their number advantage. Poor passing in their half lead to them losing a last minute try to take it to 20-11. Wanneroo are certainly improving.

Some quite impressive backs in the Kala team, Jordy made lots of ground every time he got the ball, unfortunately too many handling errors meant they never really managed to be in control. I ref'd them when they played Perth early in the season when the backs did get it right and it was a very impressive display. Lots of potential there.
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RR - any update on the Wanneroo player who went off with the nasty dislocated elbow?

Is there any requirement for there to be medics in attendance at club games? No-one seemed to know how to deal with the elbow problem or give the poor bugger any pain medication!

[bunter]

Is there a reason you didn't watch the 1st half?

Interested in your thoughts on the 1st half in comparison with the 2nd.

I have spoken to an unbiased spectator who was at the game and their perspective is way different to yours and perhaps more in line with Hansie's. It's interesting how the perspectives shift according to the allegiances of the spectator.

Afraid the first half was not available at the time Ecky.
Oh for the unbiased spectator, should be more of them.
My perspective is based on watching the DVD with the commentary running, and with the assistant referees comments. (no, not the commentary from the sidelines)

I have no allegiance to any Club and have not had for a number of years, so I guess I am a bit "unbiased" too.

Thanks for your interest.

[fulvio sammut]

Is two a "number" Bunter?

Twenty is a number.

Two is a dummy spit.

[Ecky]

Including the perspective of your "unbiased spectator" no doubt Ecky.

As it happens, he's a Paly man, FS