Useless International tours - My rant.....

[Goffy]

You have to feel for the players in these cases. The timing of the tours is all completely wrong, and the IRB should address this matter. You can’t even call them tours these days, not when you rock up in town on Tuesday, play Saturday, train, play the next Saturday then on the aircraft back home on Sunday!! This is the business end of the season for many Northern hemisphere clubs, cup comps, promotion play off’s etc and this is where the bread and butter is earned. As an ex player, I would have given all I had and more to represent my country, and I firmly believe that all future, current and ex players are in full agreement with this way of thinking, but unfortunately these days, the clubs are in a position where they find they must discourage the players from international duty, and they are forced into this for financial reasons.

Having said that, as we all too well know, a rugby career is short lived, and these guys need to make provisions and look after their families. Their main wages come from the individual clubs, therefore, you can see why the clubs are somewhat reluctant to release them for a meaningless tour when they are needed at this time by the clubs. For many rugby clubs, winning cups, promotions etc means a huge influx of funds into their coffers, which then goes towards player development, facilities development, and of course player contract money. It’s a balancing act, as if you are demoted, then you end up with less spectators, and you attract players of a slightly less calibre because you can’t afford to pay them top whack and thus the vicious downward spiral begins. For example, in the UK, there are many once great clubs who are now either defunct, or have their backs to the wall and are surviving in the smaller leagues. Take Blackheath for one, once a major provider for the national team, there are many others, Moseley, Rosslyn park, Orrell, Waterloo etc,…….

I for one am completely against annual internationals. These are now just a money spinner for the various Unions and the IRB, and unfortunately, it takes the mystique out of an international test match. Do you remember good old “tours”, the only team that does still do this is the British and Irish Lions, and even this four yearly event is now becoming more commercialised. I’m talking about the old fashioned six weeks plus tours, where you have your Saturday team and your Wednesday “dirt trackers”, the first three weeks or so, you play the top club teams, and regional representative sides, then go on to play a three match test series. As a kid, I remember standing on the terraces watching my county, Lancashire playing against Australia, also standing on the sidelines at Otley rugby club (Yorkshire) and watching the mighty All Blacks humbled by the North of England regional side 21-9, a monumental effort, one that will live with me for the rest of my days. You were lucky if you saw the Wallabies or the All Blacks once or twice every five years or so. Discounting South Africa who were still in the sporting wilderness.

The Southern hemisphere countries have it right when it comes to touring. The tours are always timed not to coincide with other fixtures, and so ultimately, the coaches are able to pick from a full compliment of players, barring any injuries of course.

This is not a vindication of Northern hemisphere teams coming down here with weakened teams to play meaningless one-off matches, it’s just my take on how I see things……ok, rant over, bring on the RWC when we will see quality rugby from the worlds best players……oh, and yes, I will be there too!

[gustafsl]

I agree with you. Here's my rant from the thread about the 2nd rate French team coming.


Alright, something has to be done to stop the crap we are seeing now. The French may have an excuse for some of their players missing, but I bet some of them would be there if it wasn't a World Cup year. Add to that second string English and Welsh teams that are currently touring. Ireland lost to Argentina so surely they were missing some players. This year we have to have a shortened Tri Nations while we waste time playing Wales, New Zealand playing France and South Africa playing England.

Basically what it comes down to is the IRB needs to do something to stop it. There would be no way to force teams to take certain players as it is a matter of opinion who the best players are and teams could argue that their alleged second tier team is really the team they want. The only way I can see to fix this is prevent the major nations (top 10) from touring to the opposite hemisphere in the lead up to a World Cup. So this would still allow a team like Canada, Fiji, Tonga to go whever they want, I guarantee Canada takes a full squad to New Zealand. But would stop the major nations from bringing 2nd rate teams because they wouldn't be allowed to come.

[frontrow]

Top quality ranting from you both, both are fully validated by performances and results( not including the welsh last week)...Not too many teams playing below full strength win on tour against full strength opposition, and begs the question why do it in the first place...

[hopep]

I can't see the sense either, its not for glory - they know they are going to loose! its not really bloodying upcoming players - they get dropped as soon as a 'real' test comes up! its not for the money. maybe?, as the crowds are down.

Tests should be - a test of each nations best - these tours are more like 'freindlies' or pre RWC practice matches that nobody, even the coaches.

Why bother indeed.

[AndyS]

But there's just no room for Tests when club commitments rule, full stop. Yes, it was different back when where a Test tour was the single highlight for the year, but those days are long gone and are not coming back. The IRB is going to have to make a decision : what do they want as the pinnacle of the game - nation or club?

• If it is nation, they need to look at cricket for their model where the game is played year round. For rugby, being a more physical game, this would more probably be a common global season where everyone plays elite club rugby first (S14/HC), then international alongside domestic club (ARC/ANZC/CC/T14/GP/ML etc).
  
• If it is club, they need to look at soccer as their model with club championships as the annual pinnacle of the game and essentially do away with Tests other than as a qualification exercise for the World Cup.

Either way, you will wind up with most of the elite players contained in a few teams. The question is whether you want those teams split along national lines or financial (i.e. mostly located in Europe). If it is the latter, we can expect to see Rugby in the SH end up like soccer - any decent player will disappear overseas, with occasional cameos for the national team...basically just enough to qualify for the WC. Unlike soccer however, Aus, NZ and SA have been to the heights of the game and if we turn into backwaters, kiss the fans and money goodbye (and eventually the sport as, unlike soccer, Union has a direct competitor for the same players in League).

Any which way, doing nothing is not an option - things will inevitably drift towards the club model. It may even sound all a little alarmist, but don't the consequences sound familiar - young players heading to Europe for the money and opportunities, whilst second string teams tour to fulfil national duties?

The question for me is whether they have already dicked around too long - breakaway club competitions were being mooted as a result of the fuss over the Heineken cup. But more importantly, I am just not sure the IRB has the brass ones (or even any intention) of doing anything about it - Europe may have made it's decision by default. It even throws a slightly different light on SA talking about realigning with Europe.

So the best question of all - what are the two countries with most to lose and all of the small nations going to do about it?

[The Lone Hydrangea]

The IRB are concerned with all these soft tours by NH teams if im reading various papers right. 40000 punters at lasts weeks match. Lowest for a rugby game at the stadium. Next lowest 54000 against Scotland. Perhaps im not the only person who is a little bewildered presently.

[Darren]

If they had have had less 'tahs players in Wallabies uniforms they would have got a bigger crowd - the locals are tired of seeing their lads get beaten by lesser teams...

[Flat-top]

Inclined to agree with AndyS who I think is saying that the days Goffy longs for are past and not likely to return.

In fact from the NH only the French have any domestic games left at this time of year, all the other leagues and comps finished before the tours start but of course as the club game extends further into the calender each year (and particularly in a WCup year) there is a need to allow players a rest period.

Of course the easiest thing is to attack the IRB for scheduling these fixtures (although I think it is down to the competing nations actually) but how else can they make money to support the grass roots of the sport. Clubs are using more and more of the available playing weeks and the national sides get less and less time to work with players.

I don't wish to take the stand to defend the IRB but I think it is too easy to be critical without putting forward a realistic alternative. Simply suggesting there should be fewer "tests" refuse to explain how the lost revenue (even if there is only 40k watching - remember there is a huge television fee generated) would be replaced.

Those halcion days Goffy talks about with "touring" sides didn't have to cope with S14/Guinness Premiership/French Top14/HCup/et al.... There are still only so many weeks in the year rugby can be played in each hemisphere and the club game in my view has made, and is continuing to make it very difficult for any national side to schedule games. I'm not saying that is a bad thing, simply that it is a fact.

[Burgs]

Grim up north: Henry wants IRB to act over sub-par touring parties

Wednesday, May 30, 2007

New Zealand coach Graham Henry has criticised northern hemisphere sides who have selected under-strength touring parties to protect key players in World Cup year.

Henry, who yesterday named a strong line-up to face France in the first Test in Auckland at the weekend, also urged the International Rugby Board to act so that end-of-season fixtures in Europe did not affect tours again.

French coach Bernard Laporte is due to name his team for Saturday's Eden Park test today after selecting a squad weakened by absentees because of the final two weeks of the national championship.

Players from Stade Francais, Biarritz, Toulouse and Clermont Auvergne were unavailable and, added to injuries, Laporte named 14 uncapped players in his 26-man squad.

"I think the IRB needs to lead and lead very strongly, and work with the clubs in Europe to ensure we preserve this great game," Henry said. "And at the moment, there's not a lot of sign of that. When sides are coming to this side of the world that are not as strong as they should be, that's not good for the game."

England had about 30 players unavailable for their series against South Africa, and the world champions slumped to a 58-10 defeat in Saturday's first test in Bloemfontein.

Wales omitted 18 first-choice players from their squad for the two tests against Australia, but acquitted themselves considerably better with a 29-23 defeat to a last-minute try in Sydney. (Wish they would stop mis-reporting this, they left behind a number of their Six Nations Squad, not their first-choice players. Their Six Nations Squad was a depleted group thanks to injury, which was reflected in an ordinary Six Nations campaign.)

"The All Blacks team that went to Europe last November was the best All Blacks team we could put on the track," Henry said. "We're holding up our end of the bargain, we're showing a lot of integrity there. We're putting the international game first but it's not a good situation at the moment."

Reuters

[Darren]

Things are different when the boot is on the other foot ....

[chook]

Good point Coach. Graham Henry's priorities are definitely not lying with S14 Rugby.